From SBNation, sure sounds an awful like like the mantra from someone on here:
Meanwhile, on offense, Miami started almost every single drive with a positive play. Sure, it’s only a 3-yard run here and 4-yard catch there, but those yards mean absolutely everything on 2nd-down. 2nd-and-short essentially opens up the entire playbook, as the threat 3rd-and-long is almost completely out of the picture. It sounds simple, but that’s because it is. As complex as football can be, you’ll win games if you can consistently make positive plays to start drives, end of story.
RPO in the NFL
RPO in football stands for Run Pass Option. The run-pass option gives the Quarterback the option to hand the ball to the running back or pass the football to a receiver.
Our OL really hinders our ability to see where we’re at with everyone else including the OCs. I can’t remember watching a worse starting 5. Grier can’t seem to pick OL so I wouldn’t mind him packing up and heading out. This next draft should have 2 OL early. Where else do we have such a massive hole in ability?
Rob, If we can engage in a respectful discussion I will try to explain the difference. The Dolphins often run out of shotgun with a single back. There is no pass option on these plays it is a straight up draw play. Look at the 2nd play of the video you posted and watch the OL and WR. They IMMEDIATLY drop into pass protection. There IS NO run “option” on this play. It is a playaction out of shot gun.
I disagree, play action…run option out of the shot gun is the same thing. how do you differentiate? what constitutes RPO?
i do agree that all i want is respectful dialogue whether we agree or not.
They are not the same as in a play action pass, it is a designed pass play. There is no run / hand off option, it is only a run “action” as part of the deception. Just like a play action from under center. The QB pretends to hand it off but NEVER will. It’s designed to pass. The receivers run there routes the Oline sets up to pass block.
In the RPO (as you have correctly stated multiple times) the line starts in run blocking. They do not transition to pass blocking from run blocking. It is on the QB to make his decision (either pre-snap due to alignment or post snap depending on the DE / Safety showing their intent) and execute the pass quickly before the line drives too far down the field.
Jackson played great last year in our 10 win season, he had Flowers next to him and Karras at center. Two seasoned vets.
he had Gailey as the OC and for the most part Fitz at QB.
all those guys are gone except Jackson, couple that with a rookie in eich, our center was hurt.
The OL works as a unit, they have to know each other to get good, that doesn’t happen overnight.
can’t just keep replacing guys they need to work it out.
Ken says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:27 pm
What you are watching there is play action vs RPO. RPO depends upon reading the DE and opting to run, hand off or pass as opposed to a designed play action or run out of the shot gun. If you watch most of the plays there is no reading of the DE they are designed plays
CORRECT! That is the same point I am trying to make. If you watch the Oline / WR and see what they are doing you can see the difference.
The first play is a designed RUN no pass option. The second play is a DESIGNED Playaction pass, no run option.
Ken says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:27 pm
What you are watching there is play action vs RPO. RPO depends upon reading the DE and opting to run, hand off or pass as opposed to a designed play action or run out of the shot gun. If you watch most of the plays there is no reading of the DE they are designed plays
______________________________________________________________________
there is a reading of the impact player whether that player is a DE, OLB or DB, that’s whether he decides to hand it to the RB, take it himself or pass.
why else would he stick in the RB then pull it back out?
I think the easiest indicator whether it is shotgun play action or RPO is the route combinations. (among other things, like how the line sets up and how the back blocks or carries out the run fake)
If you see deep routes it is most likely NOT RPO because they are set up for quick pass plays. Run ACTION plays allow the play to develop a little more so the deeper routes can develop.
If you are in a pro set, have a derrick henry and are pounding the ball, the LBer’s play up, they are keying on the RB, when the qb fakes the handoff out of the pro set from under center, and passes.
that’s play action.
in that scenario, the RB is taking off right away, there’s no hesitation, the DBs/lbs have to make a quick decision to come up in run support or stay back in pass pro depending on the down and distance.
play action does not work out of the shot gun. too much hesitation.
play action is designed to draw the defense in and open up deep passing. the dbs won’t bite out of the shotgun. that’s why a lot of teams run from under center.
if they could fool the DBs with play action from the shot gun, they would never be under center as the shotgun gives the qb an advantage when passing.
Well if you disagree I don’t know what else to tell you but that is the difference and you seem to be giving a broader definition to RPO than what most football professionals do
i’m not quite sure what constitutes RPO from these current conversations, but i definitely know what play action is and what Tua is doing is not play action.
Don’t need football 101 to explain a playaction pass to me Rob. I got it. What you seem to be discounting without any consideration is the FACT that teams can and often DO run play action out of shotgun. You can argue that it isn’t as effective as it is when run from under center. (I agree) but that doesn’t change the fact that teams still choose to do so for whatever reason.
the other thing about playaction under center vs play action out of shotgun is while under center the QB loses sight of the secondary while executing the play action and then has to take a moment to reacquire the defense once he turns around again. While the playaction from shotgun the QB never loses sight of the defense.
i’m just trying to differentiate RPO from play action, because what you are saying is Tua is running two different schemes that look exactly the same. it doesn’t matter what you want to call it, they are essentially the same play. and he does it way more than 17% of the time.
and who am i to complain as long as we keep winning.
pass to open up the run is not play action, it’s the opposite, run to open up the pass is play action, not to mention the center has to get the ball to the qb quickly in his design, why is that? to eliminate hesitation. you eliminate hesitation from under center in play action,
that said he can call it what he wants, if he feels comfortable calling that shotgun play action so be it, i call it run and shoot.
Uhg, there is just no discussing things with you. The coach explains it. He shows the pass concepts and then he shows the play action concepts based off of those pass concepts. They are shot gun based play action plays. You can’t just say that it the oposite because YOU prefer to run to set up the pass. This PROFESSIONAL coach takes 17 minutes to explain how HE chooses to use the pass to set up the run.
it’s not that i prefer the run to set up the pass, play action uses the run to set up the pass, that offense he’s referring to is commonly known as the run & shoot, like Atl with Vick.
play action is not effective from the shot gun, where as a great passing game would make a running play effective from the shotgun.
play action is designed to sell the run and hurt them with the pass, not the opposite.
Using play action from shotgun in traditional run groupings (such as 12 or 21) shows measurable improvement in production.
When adding play action from 12 and 21 combined, success rate improved by 1% and YPA improved by 1.9 YPA (from 6.5 YPA to 8.4 YPA)
The team to take the most advantage of this edge in 2018 was the Philadelphia Eagles. Their passing splits from shotgun using either 12 or 21 personnel:
With play action: 66% success, 9.8 YPA, 118 rtg (56 att)
Without play action: 49% success, 6.4 YPA, 84 rtg (114 att)
5. Note: for some reason, some teams last year used play action in 10 personnel. This is a terrible idea, as it dramatically increased sack rate and tremendously decreased success rate and YPA.
you see how our relationship erodes? and just a few short posts ago.
.
Rockphin says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:33 pm
Rob, If we can engage in a respectful discussion
I didn’t get disrespectful. I told you to educate yourself because you are wrong i’m being obstinate about it. It’s not a matter of opinion it is fact you are wrong
“We emphasize a lot of our situational deals throughout practice,” Tagovailoa said. “Whether it’s four-minute, two-minute, Bingo situations, Peter situations – maybe some of you guys don’t understand what those are – but there’s a lot of situations that go in the game having to do with trying to manage the clock whether it’s an end-of-game or end-of-half situation.”
Stubbornly stating that there is no play action from the shotgun when I post five links about running play action from the shotgun and then crying semantics is weak sauce
Ken, Play action is much different from RPO, and what Tua is doing is not play action, people have different terms in every subject, you can find what you want to support your agenda but that doesn’t make you right.
Play action has been around way longer than the shotgun, play action is not effective from the shotgun, that doesn’t mean you can’t run from the shotgun, it’s just not the purpose of play action.
to watch the exact same two plays and call one an RPO and the other play action is incorrect.
What is a Play Action in Football? In American football, a play-action pass is a play designed to look like a running play. The sequence starts when the quarterback receives the snap, from formation under center
as for Tua running the RPO, I’ve seen the RPO, it’s like the QB is a real threat to run, like a lamar jackson, he spies the edge guy and either hands it to the RB or takes it him self, or maybe he does neither and passes.
I don’t see Tua doing that very often, he’s either handing it to the rb or passing, very few times he runs, but it’s the same damn play, it’s not different, so call it what you want but don’t call it different.
“oh that was an RPO because of the rec routes” LOL
I understand Run/Pass Option in 2 different ways: 1. The running back lines up next to the QB, the play is designed to be either a run or Pass. The decision is made after the snap by the QB once he determines the reaction of the DE or OLB, he stick the ball in the RBs gut and either leaves it there or removes it to either run himself or execute a pass route option. It all depends on the post snap reaction of the defense. I think this is one that is seen the most often in CFB,
2. The QB is given a play and determines whether to run or pass depending on the PRE snap read, communicating this to the offense prior to the snap. In both cases, there is an option for the QB.
To me, play action is already determined ahead of time and the offense knows breaking the huddle, what the play is going to be unless the QB audibles to an entirely different play. If the play is a pass and has play action to it, it is still a pass play, and the play action is intended to freeze the LBs or safetys. There is no option post or pre snap that the QB is using here.
Graphic Video Warning: The #NFL needs to look at this specific style of tackling. They are throwing flags for taunting and protecting qbs from getting touched but this is my 2nd straight season being injured by a guy pulling me back and using his body weight to roll up my legs. pic.twitter.com/zgJt4rM9yG
That was my first thought too, there is no way to credibly determine or enforce that in game. Maybe an after game review could do something to limit that kind of tackle, but I think that is one players will just have to live with.
I have no idea what you even responded to me about. Actually it makes sense that it makes no sense coming from you.
Propaganda and then say leftwing trait? WTF are you even on? Do me a favor and just scroll past my posts as I do 95% of yours which will now be 100%. Have a good day.
That’s great by me, you’ve been taking potshots at me for the last month, that’s all you do, I’ve never said anything derogatory to you. Yeah please scroll by my posts, that would be great.
Unfortunately, despite the 49er’s losing, our pick from them remains at #19 because they are still the #3 WC team in the NFC behind 6-6 WFT and 8-4 Rams. The 6 WC teams take spots 19-24 in the draft.
Philly is next in NFC WC race at 6-7 behind 6-6 49er’s.
I’m trying not to focus on this as it just makes me angry. I’m almost to a place where I’ve made peace with it, but I’m sure I’ll be furious come draft day.
So we’ve replaced the redundancy of the “Tua sucks” argument with an argument about the frequency of which we run out of the RPO argument. Well, kudos to you Rob for keeping your word and dropping the Tua argument…
“With the three sacks last week against the Panthers, Phillips became the first rookie to record at least six sacks over a three-game span since Julius Peppers did it back in 2002.”
“Jevon Holland leads all NFL safeties in QB pressures (15), per Pro Football Focus. He’s also tied for third among safeties with nine passes defensed.”
“Liam Eichenberg matched his season-low in QB pressures allowed, surrendering just one hurry in the game Sunday (PFF). It was his third time this season with a single digit in the pressures-allowed column and second time in as many weeks.”
“Five Games, 55 Points Allowed
It’s difficult to win scoring just 11 points in a game — that’s the mark Miami has held its opponents to on average during the five-game winning streak. The best part of all, they’re doing it exactly to Brian Flores’ vision. Players are taking their turn in the spotlight and the comprehensive result is a total team effort that is smothering opposing offenses, starting on early downs.
Miami is allowing 5.11 yards per play on first down, 10th-best in the NFL this season. Since Week 9 — the start of the winning streak — Miami is tops at 4.19 yards per first down play. That early down success tees up the splash plays later in the series. Emmanuel Ogbah (19), Andrew Van Ginkel (18) and Jaelan Phillips (16) all rank inside the top 15 in the league in QB hits, and three players rank inside the top 20 in passes defensed — Xavien Howard (14), Emmanuel Ogbah (9), Jevon Holland (9).”
“After completing 7-of-9 fourth quarter passes for 89 yards and a touchdown in the final period Sunday, Tagovailoa’s passer rating splits in the fourth quarter are the best among all quarterbacks since 1994. According to Stathead, Tagovailoa’s 109.7 passer rating in the critical period is the best of any quarterback over that 28-year period.”
The Miami Dolphins’ pass catchers didn’t have their best days despite the 20-9 victory on Sunday. The actual number varies depending on who you trust, but some analysts counted as many as six dropped passes against the Giants, which is out of a total of 11 incompletions.
That number didn’t cost Miami the victory against the Giants and their backup quarterback, however the Dolphins can’t continue to make those kinds of costly mistakes going forward if their plan is to win out and find themselves in the playoffs this season.
If you add those six dropped passes to Tua Tagovailoa’s statline, he would have passed for 36 completions on 41 attempts – good for an absurd 88% completion percentage. That would have given him three consecutive games above an 80% completion percentage while attempting 30 or more throws. Alas, he finished with a measly 73.1% completion rate. I wonder if Logan Ryan could do that
Not a big “if you took away this play” guy, but that is insane.
good thing we have speed at the skill positions because even as a dinky dunker Tua has the same yards per pass attempt than Mahomes & Tannehill and more than Wentz, Fields, Hurtz, Ryan, Jones, Dalton, Rothlesburger, DuhArnald, Lawrance and Brisket
Armstead/Brown and Scherff/Tomlinson would be just what we need to take the next step. The younger guys can be used for depth. We’ll have a ton of cap space this off-season, and we need to spend it on the OL.
This could be a crazy game. These types of weather games can go a lot of ways. Low scoring because it’s not ideal, or because of the weather guys slip and allow big plays and turnovers could play a big role in the game.
Tua and the rest of the offense seem to be getting more comfortable playing with each other even though we still have some deficiencies. Hope most of these guys can stay on the field down the stretch so they can continuing building something for the future.
Parker makes our offense so much better but as we know he struggles to stay on the field. That really sucks because he is a very good WR.
I’m focused more on how he’s played since he came back from his finger and rib injuries. The whole team was playing poorly at the beginning of the year, but they are coming together now. Five wins in a row Rob!
Once we improve our O-Line (via FA), we need to somehow find a punishing RB that can be a menace to opposing Defenses; most of us agree that Gaskin is not that guy, that rather he’s a stud playmaker as a 3rd down or change-of-pace RB.
Again, looking at the RBs entering the 2022 Draft, it doesn’t scream “STUD”.
Leonard Fournette is having a resurgent year… could he be that guy for us as he enters FA? And WTF is up with Rashaad Penny in Seattle? Is he another 1st round bust of a RB, is he not being used properly, or have injuries already taken the toll on him in his young career? He’s another RB we could use who is approaching FA in ’22.
HOPEFULLY, we can just plug-and-play at RB with a FUNCTIONAL O-Line.
Dolphins QBs have fewest batted passes (1) in NFL this season. Tua has only 3 career batted passes in 565 attempts. Conversely, Dolphins DE Emmanuel Ogbah has 9 batted passes this season. Miami leads NFL in passes defended. (Via Pro Football Reference).
Because Tua is better in the pocket and finds passing lanes. It’s not about being shorter than your OL and you have to throw over them. When a QB takes a snap and is 5 yards deep in the pocket, it’s not like your OL is 10 feet tall. Depth perception changes. Some are better at it than others. Tua is so good at a lot of the intangibles that goes into to playing QB, that people don’t realize how much better he is at it than a lot of other QBs. He’s also just getting started.
M13, we didn’t pass on Javonte Williams, Denver jumped us in the early 2nd round to draft him. But I’m in no way bummed about not getting him because Holland is a young stud. He has the potential to be our version of an Ed Reed type player.
We can’t really get on the team for Phillips and Holland instead of Harris and Williams because we may have taken the two better players for now and long term. Phillips is becoming a beast front 7 guy before our eyes. He’s lining up everywhere and making his presence known.
I agree we need a more powerful compact RB who do can get the dirty yards. And Gaskin as a change of pace would be perfect because he’s a good player and he’s not just a 3rd down back. Until the OL can become more physical up front I don’t think RB is a big deal unless he’s a special talent that can make things happen when nothing is there. There are not a lot of guys like that available.
Look what Tua did to these defenders with his eyes and shoulders. Some guys do the no-look pass here. His release is so quick, doesn't really need to.
Some of the traits that have made him so effective in red zone. He's #3 among all QBs the last three decades in TD percentage. pic.twitter.com/a6VyZ87dR8
That was a really good play and Tua had multiple options on the move rather than having to get rid of it under pressure in the pocket. Tua plays his position really well regardless of whether you think he’s too short, lacks arm strength, he’s fragile etc. He has natural instincts for the position and better than average physical ability. The one thing his detractors are not giving him credit for is how accurate he is. That’s a natural trait. He’s also very competitive. He’s just getting started after the hip injury in college we all know about, the ribs and his finger injury in the NFL. He’s learning what he needs to do with welcome to the NFL.
This TOO was a play action pass. Sweep action. Tua does a masterful job of hiding the ball on his hip after the hand off motion to the jet sweep. It freezes the DE who could have sacked him if he knew he had the ball. Eich was way to the right of the angle to block.
Why are we still acting like the Dolphins are the only team that runs shotgun 11 personnel? We see it in every game every week most of the time. That’s how teams play these days. It’s not about scheme and formation. It’s about execution.
I’m pretty sure, for example, we were not running that formation where the QBs is in the shotgun and the rb is behind the QB instead of to the side until the last few weeks
I think it was always a work in progress. Our offense has no history or body of work being anything to rely on, they’re all still figuring it out. The defense is way ahead and that’s a group nobody wants to play right now. Sanders is having a tough season. Other than that the ST’s have been solid at best.
What you’re looking for from a more old school style of football is gone, man. Maybe teams do it 5% of the time depending on game circumstances. I would not run I-formation or pro set type rush plays behind this OL. They have proven they struggle to move the defense off the LOS. Running plays you can’t execute is a waste of time.
You try to win with what you have is the best way to. Then build on that. The 10-6 season last year really fucked with our heads. LOL
In short, play-action passes mean the lineman is pass blocking while the quarterback fakes run. … RPO is similar to the read-option, but instead of reading a defensive lineman, the quarterback is reading a linebacker to throw the football or hand it off, while the lineman is blocking for a run.Jul 27, 2021
Difference Between Play Action, RPO & Read Option – vIQtory …
Finsmob Unleashed 
From SBNation, sure sounds an awful like like the mantra from someone on here:
Meanwhile, on offense, Miami started almost every single drive with a positive play. Sure, it’s only a 3-yard run here and 4-yard catch there, but those yards mean absolutely everything on 2nd-down. 2nd-and-short essentially opens up the entire playbook, as the threat 3rd-and-long is almost completely out of the picture. It sounds simple, but that’s because it is. As complex as football can be, you’ll win games if you can consistently make positive plays to start drives, end of story.
1st down is the most important down
That’s the mantra of everyone here.
RPO in the NFL
RPO in football stands for Run Pass Option. The run-pass option gives the Quarterback the option to hand the ball to the running back or pass the football to a receiver.
Our OL really hinders our ability to see where we’re at with everyone else including the OCs. I can’t remember watching a worse starting 5. Grier can’t seem to pick OL so I wouldn’t mind him packing up and heading out. This next draft should have 2 OL early. Where else do we have such a massive hole in ability?
That RPO isn’t an RPO! WTF was i thinking?
Rob, If we can engage in a respectful discussion I will try to explain the difference. The Dolphins often run out of shotgun with a single back. There is no pass option on these plays it is a straight up draw play. Look at the 2nd play of the video you posted and watch the OL and WR. They IMMEDIATLY drop into pass protection. There IS NO run “option” on this play. It is a playaction out of shot gun.
I disagree, play action…run option out of the shot gun is the same thing. how do you differentiate? what constitutes RPO?
i do agree that all i want is respectful dialogue whether we agree or not.
They are not the same as in a play action pass, it is a designed pass play. There is no run / hand off option, it is only a run “action” as part of the deception. Just like a play action from under center. The QB pretends to hand it off but NEVER will. It’s designed to pass. The receivers run there routes the Oline sets up to pass block.
In the RPO (as you have correctly stated multiple times) the line starts in run blocking. They do not transition to pass blocking from run blocking. It is on the QB to make his decision (either pre-snap due to alignment or post snap depending on the DE / Safety showing their intent) and execute the pass quickly before the line drives too far down the field.
Jackson played great last year in our 10 win season, he had Flowers next to him and Karras at center. Two seasoned vets.
he had Gailey as the OC and for the most part Fitz at QB.
all those guys are gone except Jackson, couple that with a rookie in eich, our center was hurt.
The OL works as a unit, they have to know each other to get good, that doesn’t happen overnight.
can’t just keep replacing guys they need to work it out.
Getting rid of Flowers was a mistake imo. He has been playing well for WFT again
Ken says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:27 pm
What you are watching there is play action vs RPO. RPO depends upon reading the DE and opting to run, hand off or pass as opposed to a designed play action or run out of the shot gun. If you watch most of the plays there is no reading of the DE they are designed plays
CORRECT! That is the same point I am trying to make. If you watch the Oline / WR and see what they are doing you can see the difference.
The first play is a designed RUN no pass option. The second play is a DESIGNED Playaction pass, no run option.
2:41 in the vid (10:22 on game clock) PLAY ACTION no run option
2:55 in vid is the FIRST RPO play an he hands it off
LOL, same play only difference is he didn’t hand it off and kept it himself.
Ken says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:27 pm
What you are watching there is play action vs RPO. RPO depends upon reading the DE and opting to run, hand off or pass as opposed to a designed play action or run out of the shot gun. If you watch most of the plays there is no reading of the DE they are designed plays
______________________________________________________________________
there is a reading of the impact player whether that player is a DE, OLB or DB, that’s whether he decides to hand it to the RB, take it himself or pass.
why else would he stick in the RB then pull it back out?
Play action that’s why
And when I say DE I mean the edge contain
that is PLAY ACTION
I think the easiest indicator whether it is shotgun play action or RPO is the route combinations. (among other things, like how the line sets up and how the back blocks or carries out the run fake)
If you see deep routes it is most likely NOT RPO because they are set up for quick pass plays. Run ACTION plays allow the play to develop a little more so the deeper routes can develop.
If you are in a pro set, have a derrick henry and are pounding the ball, the LBer’s play up, they are keying on the RB, when the qb fakes the handoff out of the pro set from under center, and passes.
that’s play action.
in that scenario, the RB is taking off right away, there’s no hesitation, the DBs/lbs have to make a quick decision to come up in run support or stay back in pass pro depending on the down and distance.
play action does not work out of the shot gun. too much hesitation.
play action is designed to draw the defense in and open up deep passing. the dbs won’t bite out of the shotgun. that’s why a lot of teams run from under center.
if they could fool the DBs with play action from the shot gun, they would never be under center as the shotgun gives the qb an advantage when passing.
https://www.viqtorysports.com/understanding-rpo/
From that link:
One more closing thought. Play action and RPO’s are COMPLETELY different.
The easiest way to tell the difference between the two – look at the line of scrimmage (on the offensive side).
If the offensive line is run blocking, it’s more than likely an RPO. If they’re pass blocking, we can only assume that it’s a play-action pass.
This is a classic mixup, as the buzzword RPO seemingly has been implemented in every broadcast.
i disagree, most play action the ol is run blocking to fool the dbs into coming up in run support. look at the video i posted
Well if you disagree I don’t know what else to tell you but that is the difference and you seem to be giving a broader definition to RPO than what most football professionals do
i’m not quite sure what constitutes RPO from these current conversations, but i definitely know what play action is and what Tua is doing is not play action.
Don’t need football 101 to explain a playaction pass to me Rob. I got it. What you seem to be discounting without any consideration is the FACT that teams can and often DO run play action out of shotgun. You can argue that it isn’t as effective as it is when run from under center. (I agree) but that doesn’t change the fact that teams still choose to do so for whatever reason.
the other thing about playaction under center vs play action out of shotgun is while under center the QB loses sight of the secondary while executing the play action and then has to take a moment to reacquire the defense once he turns around again. While the playaction from shotgun the QB never loses sight of the defense.
i’m just trying to differentiate RPO from play action, because what you are saying is Tua is running two different schemes that look exactly the same. it doesn’t matter what you want to call it, they are essentially the same play. and he does it way more than 17% of the time.
and who am i to complain as long as we keep winning.
pass to open up the run is not play action, it’s the opposite, run to open up the pass is play action, not to mention the center has to get the ball to the qb quickly in his design, why is that? to eliminate hesitation. you eliminate hesitation from under center in play action,
that said he can call it what he wants, if he feels comfortable calling that shotgun play action so be it, i call it run and shoot.
Uhg, there is just no discussing things with you. The coach explains it. He shows the pass concepts and then he shows the play action concepts based off of those pass concepts. They are shot gun based play action plays. You can’t just say that it the oposite because YOU prefer to run to set up the pass. This PROFESSIONAL coach takes 17 minutes to explain how HE chooses to use the pass to set up the run.
it’s not that i prefer the run to set up the pass, play action uses the run to set up the pass, that offense he’s referring to is commonly known as the run & shoot, like Atl with Vick.
play action is not effective from the shot gun, where as a great passing game would make a running play effective from the shotgun.
play action is designed to sell the run and hurt them with the pass, not the opposite.
i’m done we’re getting no where
YOU Can call this a banana, but I call it an orange…….That is the logic behind your arguments so often.
I couldn’t agree more
That’s definitely a Banana not an orange or play action.
EXACTLY!! And the play action plays we are discussing are DEFINATELY PLAY ACTION and not RPO. You got my point at least.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/6/21/18701109/more-play-action-effectiveness-pressure-usage-seattle-seahawks-russell-wilson-shotgun-under-center
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/situational-play-action-passing-nfl
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/the-best-time-to-utilize-play-action/
Using play action from shotgun in traditional run groupings (such as 12 or 21) shows measurable improvement in production.
When adding play action from 12 and 21 combined, success rate improved by 1% and YPA improved by 1.9 YPA (from 6.5 YPA to 8.4 YPA)
The team to take the most advantage of this edge in 2018 was the Philadelphia Eagles. Their passing splits from shotgun using either 12 or 21 personnel:
With play action: 66% success, 9.8 YPA, 118 rtg (56 att)
Without play action: 49% success, 6.4 YPA, 84 rtg (114 att)
5. Note: for some reason, some teams last year used play action in 10 personnel. This is a terrible idea, as it dramatically increased sack rate and tremendously decreased success rate and YPA.
Just google playaction from shotgun, spend some time reading and maybe we can discuss it more later.
Bad Dad joke of the day:
Two nuns riding their bicycles down a cobblestone road.
One looks around and says to the other, “I don’t think I’ve ever come this way before.”
The other looks at her and says, “must be the cobblestones.”
LOL
LOL
you see how our relationship erodes? and just a few short posts ago.
.
Rockphin says:
December 6, 2021 at 1:33 pm
Rob, If we can engage in a respectful discussion
I didn’t get disrespectful. I told you to educate yourself because you are wrong i’m being obstinate about it. It’s not a matter of opinion it is fact you are wrong
Looks like Tua has a bag of dicks
“We emphasize a lot of our situational deals throughout practice,” Tagovailoa said. “Whether it’s four-minute, two-minute, Bingo situations, Peter situations – maybe some of you guys don’t understand what those are – but there’s a lot of situations that go in the game having to do with trying to manage the clock whether it’s an end-of-game or end-of-half situation.”
What does that mean? I’ve never heard the phrase. Why does he have a “bag of dicks?
i googled it
it seems as though play action is – or at least was for the 2018 season – far more effective when the quarterback is not in shotgun.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2019/6/21/18701109/more-play-action-effectiveness-pressure-usage-seattle-seahawks-russell-wilson-shotgun-under-center
Yes I agree. Can you bring yourself to agree that it exists?? Play action from the shotgun exists and is common.
Whether or not play action is effective out of the shot gun has nothing to do with the fact that it is different than an RPO
Exactly
Stubbornly stating that there is no play action from the shotgun when I post five links about running play action from the shotgun and then crying semantics is weak sauce
Ken, Play action is much different from RPO, and what Tua is doing is not play action, people have different terms in every subject, you can find what you want to support your agenda but that doesn’t make you right.
Play action has been around way longer than the shotgun, play action is not effective from the shotgun, that doesn’t mean you can’t run from the shotgun, it’s just not the purpose of play action.
to watch the exact same two plays and call one an RPO and the other play action is incorrect.
It is play action he is not reading the edge and the line is pass blocking which means by definition it is not an RPO
What is a Play Action in Football? In American football, a play-action pass is a play designed to look like a running play. The sequence starts when the quarterback receives the snap, from formation under center
Play action doesn’t mean lining up under center. All it means is faking a hand off doesn’t matter where you line up
as for Tua running the RPO, I’ve seen the RPO, it’s like the QB is a real threat to run, like a lamar jackson, he spies the edge guy and either hands it to the RB or takes it him self, or maybe he does neither and passes.
I don’t see Tua doing that very often, he’s either handing it to the rb or passing, very few times he runs, but it’s the same damn play, it’s not different, so call it what you want but don’t call it different.
“oh that was an RPO because of the rec routes” LOL
“that was shotgun play action because he twitched his eye”!
if we were a good play action team we would be a good running team which we’re not.
Typically play action is used effectively by teams that have already demonstrated the ability to run the ball
Play action with Marino was useless, and even comical to some extent, because no team respected the run game, so play action was ineffective.
I understand Run/Pass Option in 2 different ways: 1. The running back lines up next to the QB, the play is designed to be either a run or Pass. The decision is made after the snap by the QB once he determines the reaction of the DE or OLB, he stick the ball in the RBs gut and either leaves it there or removes it to either run himself or execute a pass route option. It all depends on the post snap reaction of the defense. I think this is one that is seen the most often in CFB,
2. The QB is given a play and determines whether to run or pass depending on the PRE snap read, communicating this to the offense prior to the snap. In both cases, there is an option for the QB.
To me, play action is already determined ahead of time and the offense knows breaking the huddle, what the play is going to be unless the QB audibles to an entirely different play. If the play is a pass and has play action to it, it is still a pass play, and the play action is intended to freeze the LBs or safetys. There is no option post or pre snap that the QB is using here.
Just my understanding.
i had seen that yesterday, not sure how you can enforce that, it should be an unwritten rule. that’s not cool if that was intentionally done
That was my first thought too, there is no way to credibly determine or enforce that in game. Maybe an after game review could do something to limit that kind of tackle, but I think that is one players will just have to live with.
Hey ORob
I have no idea what you even responded to me about. Actually it makes sense that it makes no sense coming from you.
Propaganda and then say leftwing trait? WTF are you even on? Do me a favor and just scroll past my posts as I do 95% of yours which will now be 100%. Have a good day.
That’s great by me, you’ve been taking potshots at me for the last month, that’s all you do, I’ve never said anything derogatory to you. Yeah please scroll by my posts, that would be great.
😆
With the win, our pick to Philly dropped to #12.
Unfortunately, despite the 49er’s losing, our pick from them remains at #19 because they are still the #3 WC team in the NFC behind 6-6 WFT and 8-4 Rams. The 6 WC teams take spots 19-24 in the draft.
Philly is next in NFC WC race at 6-7 behind 6-6 49er’s.
I’m trying not to focus on this as it just makes me angry. I’m almost to a place where I’ve made peace with it, but I’m sure I’ll be furious come draft day.
LOL, same here.
I don’t think other than the two teams in the Super Bowl that playoffs are a part of the draft order, it’s based on record and strength of schedule.
So we’ve replaced the redundancy of the “Tua sucks” argument with an argument about the frequency of which we run out of the RPO argument. Well, kudos to you Rob for keeping your word and dropping the Tua argument…
The only one who can shut me up is Tua, and i am quieting down just a little
“With the three sacks last week against the Panthers, Phillips became the first rookie to record at least six sacks over a three-game span since Julius Peppers did it back in 2002.”
“Jevon Holland leads all NFL safeties in QB pressures (15), per Pro Football Focus. He’s also tied for third among safeties with nine passes defensed.”
MY MAN!
My Holland jersey should be arriving this week
“Liam Eichenberg matched his season-low in QB pressures allowed, surrendering just one hurry in the game Sunday (PFF). It was his third time this season with a single digit in the pressures-allowed column and second time in as many weeks.”
What about the sack he gave up?
Just copying and pasting from the team website.
“Five Games, 55 Points Allowed
It’s difficult to win scoring just 11 points in a game — that’s the mark Miami has held its opponents to on average during the five-game winning streak. The best part of all, they’re doing it exactly to Brian Flores’ vision. Players are taking their turn in the spotlight and the comprehensive result is a total team effort that is smothering opposing offenses, starting on early downs.
Miami is allowing 5.11 yards per play on first down, 10th-best in the NFL this season. Since Week 9 — the start of the winning streak — Miami is tops at 4.19 yards per first down play. That early down success tees up the splash plays later in the series. Emmanuel Ogbah (19), Andrew Van Ginkel (18) and Jaelan Phillips (16) all rank inside the top 15 in the league in QB hits, and three players rank inside the top 20 in passes defensed — Xavien Howard (14), Emmanuel Ogbah (9), Jevon Holland (9).”
“After completing 7-of-9 fourth quarter passes for 89 yards and a touchdown in the final period Sunday, Tagovailoa’s passer rating splits in the fourth quarter are the best among all quarterbacks since 1994. According to Stathead, Tagovailoa’s 109.7 passer rating in the critical period is the best of any quarterback over that 28-year period.”
Ahem…..Stats Schmatz
😉
Don’t tell Orob because he can’t see it! Or hear it!
Makes him wrong and that’s never a possibility….
….the RPO discussion up the page is a perfect example….almost like playing dumb, but not really?
I like the “Fuck You” he is giving on the field to Ross and/or to whoever in the FO who was pursuing Watson.
Tua’s mov’n up, he’s at 15 now
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing.htm
PFF has him at 13, but it’s good he is moving up!
damn if he proves me wrong i’ll have to go back to QB school!
Will cost too much. Use it on Ogbah, Gesicki and sign some OL.
Then draft JAMESON WILLIAMS!
100%, my man! Sign Terron Armstead, re-sign Gesicki and Ogbah, then it’s off to the races in the 2022 Draft… JAMESON WILLIAMS!
I’ve got my eyes on Terron Armstead, T, Arkansas Pine Bluff/M13 U
Hell Yeah!!!
Two Penn St. boys right up there!
YESSIR!
I’ll be drafting kickers again this mock draft season. Sanders is no longer automatic.
Too many dropped balls
The Miami Dolphins’ pass catchers didn’t have their best days despite the 20-9 victory on Sunday. The actual number varies depending on who you trust, but some analysts counted as many as six dropped passes against the Giants, which is out of a total of 11 incompletions.
That number didn’t cost Miami the victory against the Giants and their backup quarterback, however the Dolphins can’t continue to make those kinds of costly mistakes going forward if their plan is to win out and find themselves in the playoffs this season.
If you add those six dropped passes to Tua Tagovailoa’s statline, he would have passed for 36 completions on 41 attempts – good for an absurd 88% completion percentage. That would have given him three consecutive games above an 80% completion percentage while attempting 30 or more throws. Alas, he finished with a measly 73.1% completion rate. I wonder if Logan Ryan could do that
Not a big “if you took away this play” guy, but that is insane.
WOOT WOOT
That is perfect! I love that even after getting paid (again, and in a dickish way IMO) that he is walking the walk. Stay healthy now.
+10000000000, Rockphin!
good thing we have speed at the skill positions because even as a dinky dunker Tua has the same yards per pass attempt than Mahomes & Tannehill and more than Wentz, Fields, Hurtz, Ryan, Jones, Dalton, Rothlesburger, DuhArnald, Lawrance and Brisket
If it was Brees they would be talking MVP…
Media love hating on all things Fins. So be it. Gotta make them have no choice and to do that is keep winning
M13,
Armstead/Brown and Scherff/Tomlinson would be just what we need to take the next step. The younger guys can be used for depth. We’ll have a ton of cap space this off-season, and we need to spend it on the OL.
Agreed. We MUST fix this miserable O-Line of ours.
This could be a crazy game. These types of weather games can go a lot of ways. Low scoring because it’s not ideal, or because of the weather guys slip and allow big plays and turnovers could play a big role in the game.
Let’s hope both teams get swept away by a tornado
LOL, Dolphins division winners by default due to Bills and Pats no longer existing.
Tua and the rest of the offense seem to be getting more comfortable playing with each other even though we still have some deficiencies. Hope most of these guys can stay on the field down the stretch so they can continuing building something for the future.
Parker makes our offense so much better but as we know he struggles to stay on the field. That really sucks because he is a very good WR.
yards gained per pass completion Y/C, tua’s 30th
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/passing.htm
28th according to that
I’m focused more on how he’s played since he came back from his finger and rib injuries. The whole team was playing poorly at the beginning of the year, but they are coming together now. Five wins in a row Rob!
I thought Chris Bergman retired. What happened? Did he come back.
He came back in a part time capacity a few years ago just to annoy everyone
Once we improve our O-Line (via FA), we need to somehow find a punishing RB that can be a menace to opposing Defenses; most of us agree that Gaskin is not that guy, that rather he’s a stud playmaker as a 3rd down or change-of-pace RB.
Again, looking at the RBs entering the 2022 Draft, it doesn’t scream “STUD”.
Leonard Fournette is having a resurgent year… could he be that guy for us as he enters FA? And WTF is up with Rashaad Penny in Seattle? Is he another 1st round bust of a RB, is he not being used properly, or have injuries already taken the toll on him in his young career? He’s another RB we could use who is approaching FA in ’22.
HOPEFULLY, we can just plug-and-play at RB with a FUNCTIONAL O-Line.
Man, Javonte Williams looked REALLY good last night, and typifies the runner you described above .
Right on, man! And of course, we passed on him.
I’m good with passing on him for Holland, but I think we could have landed BOTH Williams and Holland in the 2nd round last year.
Sorry, we didn’t pass on Williams for Holland. My bad.
Yeah- Denver jumped us, but I’m good with Holland!
Me too!
Anybody remember how many of Tannehill’s passes were batted down in his first 16 games with us? It was embarrassing!
Tua, who is much shorter than Tanny, isn’t having any problems with batted passes.
Because Tua is better in the pocket and finds passing lanes. It’s not about being shorter than your OL and you have to throw over them. When a QB takes a snap and is 5 yards deep in the pocket, it’s not like your OL is 10 feet tall. Depth perception changes. Some are better at it than others. Tua is so good at a lot of the intangibles that goes into to playing QB, that people don’t realize how much better he is at it than a lot of other QBs. He’s also just getting started.
Because he high tails it out of there, doesn’t throw as many pressure passes from pocket
True Tim, but Tua misses out on a lot of open receivers, while he’s getting out of the picjet
That’s an insane stat
I found the comment at 15 seconds in very interesting. Goes to show what you don’t know.
espn Monday Night countdown is unwatchable
I don’t think so, never have I wanted Buffalo to win a game more than this one
But yeah I hear you on the cheats
M13, we didn’t pass on Javonte Williams, Denver jumped us in the early 2nd round to draft him. But I’m in no way bummed about not getting him because Holland is a young stud. He has the potential to be our version of an Ed Reed type player.
We can’t really get on the team for Phillips and Holland instead of Harris and Williams because we may have taken the two better players for now and long term. Phillips is becoming a beast front 7 guy before our eyes. He’s lining up everywhere and making his presence known.
I agree we need a more powerful compact RB who do can get the dirty yards. And Gaskin as a change of pace would be perfect because he’s a good player and he’s not just a 3rd down back. Until the OL can become more physical up front I don’t think RB is a big deal unless he’s a special talent that can make things happen when nothing is there. There are not a lot of guys like that available.
Chicken or the egg?
You mean OL vs. special RB?
Right on! I corrected myself above, man.
I know but I posted before I saw it.
I loved both Harris and Williams but at the end of the day I am happier having both Phillips and Holland as opposed to either Harris or Williams
Do you know why 29 stopped
I think I do
I think he thought Tua was about to run it in
Either that or throw to Parker and he’s sealing that passing lane
That was a really good play and Tua had multiple options on the move rather than having to get rid of it under pressure in the pocket. Tua plays his position really well regardless of whether you think he’s too short, lacks arm strength, he’s fragile etc. He has natural instincts for the position and better than average physical ability. The one thing his detractors are not giving him credit for is how accurate he is. That’s a natural trait. He’s also very competitive. He’s just getting started after the hip injury in college we all know about, the ribs and his finger injury in the NFL. He’s learning what he needs to do with welcome to the NFL.
He made the safest throw
If 29 moves with Ford, as opposed the what Daryl Johnston is saying, he can either run it in, or throwTo Parker or Gesicki
That isn’t an easy play to defend
This TOO was a play action pass. Sweep action. Tua does a masterful job of hiding the ball on his hip after the hand off motion to the jet sweep. It freezes the DE who could have sacked him if he knew he had the ball. Eich was way to the right of the angle to block.
Stats with Tua at this point can be very misleading, like comp % on one side and yards per rec on the other
Since we use short passes instead of runs often, both those stats above need to e put in context
We may often see a QB throw for well over 300 yards and think Tua doesn’t compare, but consistency matters, ask the 72 Fins
Hat short passing game works if you are picking up 4-6 yards 70% of the time
The difference between our Team now as opposed to September/October is the way our defense is playing IMO
Up to 50 mph gusts in Buffalo, let’s see what Mac is made of
Me over the stadium right now
🐖💨💨💨💨
“Screw all of you jerks!”
Steve, Tua has some missed passes like every other QB does, even elite ones. But I would not say it happens a lot.
What happens on this blog and throughout the media is we hold him to the highest standard. Let’s see where he is in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons.
Those wind gusts are here in NJ now. I’d say within the last 20 minutes.
We’ll only believe you once David fact checks your weather report
I’ll let you know if trees or branches come down. I promise I won’t lie. LOL
LOL @ the Bills, trying to be like us!
I always forget Godchaux signed with the devil
Why is Buffalo playing dinky dunk offense when they have a 6-6 QB with a cannon? Asking for a friend? 😉
Afraid of old man winter
It doesn’t even look that bad.
Big break for Buff
Gabriel Davis from UCF
Playaction out of the shotgun for BUF
The video of the TD pass up the page is a playaction pass too.
Not sure it matters who wins this game, we aren’t beating the cheats week 18
Why are we still acting like the Dolphins are the only team that runs shotgun 11 personnel? We see it in every game every week most of the time. That’s how teams play these days. It’s not about scheme and formation. It’s about execution.
Everyone does it
But early in the year it seemed like our playbook was a tenth of what it is now
I think everything was so new and it took time along with the Watson rumors.
Right now, nobody wants to play against our defense. Our offense is still a work in progress. ST’s have been meh.
No one’s acting like we’re the only team. We would just like it done less.
Rock
Tua does do a really good job of hiding the ball
I missed that when I first watched
I missed the early part of the game
How did we get to 11 points?
TD, 2point conversion, FG
That’s a weird time to go for 2 points
I’m thinking, Billy was thinking a low scoring game?????
50 mph cross winds might’ve had something to do with it
Steve, what makes you say that?
We’ve already beaten them once!
Our Run D has been great lately!
Our pass D is lights out!
I wouldn’t call giving up 5.5 ypc against the gmen great
We aren’t physical enough to stop the cheats running game, then when we have to crowd the box they beat us over the top
The G-men do have a decent RB if I remember correctly?
I don’t see it that way! But carry on
Tim
It feels to me like they streamlined the playcalling process
I know you never bought into my theory about multiple OCs being a problem, but it feels like they figured that out and just use more of the playbook
I’m pretty sure, for example, we were not running that formation where the QBs is in the shotgun and the rb is behind the QB instead of to the side until the last few weeks
Have you noticed that change?
I think it was always a work in progress. Our offense has no history or body of work being anything to rely on, they’re all still figuring it out. The defense is way ahead and that’s a group nobody wants to play right now. Sanders is having a tough season. Other than that the ST’s have been solid at best.
Piggs they went for 2 rather kicking into the wind they previously had a punt go only 15 yards as the wind pushed it back.
New OC “s”, new blocking scheme’s
Wash rinse repeat = Slow starts to the season!!!!
^
Been saying Flores needs to knock that shit off
The difference now and early in the season on O has been Tua
On D they went back to what worked last year and the rooks are ballin
you guys are almost as funny as play action from the shotgun!
almost.
What you’re looking for from a more old school style of football is gone, man. Maybe teams do it 5% of the time depending on game circumstances. I would not run I-formation or pro set type rush plays behind this OL. They have proven they struggle to move the defense off the LOS. Running plays you can’t execute is a waste of time.
You try to win with what you have is the best way to. Then build on that. The 10-6 season last year really fucked with our heads. LOL
In short, play-action passes mean the lineman is pass blocking while the quarterback fakes run. … RPO is similar to the read-option, but instead of reading a defensive lineman, the quarterback is reading a linebacker to throw the football or hand it off, while the lineman is blocking for a run.Jul 27, 2021
Difference Between Play Action, RPO & Read Option – vIQtory …
https://www.viqtorysports.com/play-action-rpo-read-option/
This is educational.
Ever notice when a guy makes a play, the idiots in the booth say he’s having a great game
Mac Jones has thrown 1 pass tonight
That’s what you get from short passes, with an accurate QB
let’s get a couple of more weeks in a row
Watching the game with Peyton and Eli is way better than Kermit and Reddick. I like Griese but the other two suck.
why throw the ball when you can gain 10+ yards every play?
News flash cheats getting away with a lot of holding
Buffalo getting pushed around like little punks
As I say that, the Pats are running exactly what ORob wants. LOL
This unreal why the hell is buff still playing a safety 10-15 yds deep?
Because they busted one in the 1st half
Oh, I came in during the 2nd quarter, missed that.
222 rushing yards? Harris with 10 for 111? Damn
I think this result really hurts our playoff chances which were already slim
Bills got Buffaloed in Buffalo