As you all probably know already, the Dolphins made some cuts yesterday, not reporting this, just recapping what’s happened. One of the bigger surprises was cutting DT Akeem Spence who we picked up last year from Detroit for a conditional 2019 7th RD pick. Also somewhat a surprise was cutting safety T.J. McDonald. Not surprising was parting ways with OL Will Holden (Not to be confused with actor William Holden). We also waived OT Jordan Mills who when we first picked him up after Buffalo released him I thought he may be our starting RT this season. The way he performed for us in practice and in the preseason made it clear that wasn’t going to happen. Also waived were LB Chase Allen, and veteran TE Clive Walford.
Now to the big news. The Dolphins met with Jadeveon Clowney yesterday, although Clowney did not deem the Miami Dolphins originally as a potential suitor. He preferred the Seattle Seahawks, but after meeting with Dolphins HC Brian Flores, his opinion may have changed. At the moment, it actually seems as if the Dolphins are the team most likely to land Clowney, but at what price? Keep in mind, the price is two-fold. We have to trade talent to the Texans in exchange for Clowney, and then we have to pay Clowney. He signed a 1 year deal worth just under $16M, but what happens after this season? Therein lies the rub . . .
I had to drive from one office to another yesterday and I had the pleasure of catching some good dialogue between NFL Radio hosts Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller. Pat Kirwan is not the foremost authority on everything NFL, but as a former HC and NFL GM, he’s well respected in NFL circles. Kirwan was very much against the Dolphins acquiring Clowney and made some excellent points. He was saying that Clowney hasn’t been a premier player while playing with J.J. Watt. This reminds me of tha situation the Dolphins had years ago. Flash back to the year 2002 when the Dolphins had Jason Taylor and Adewale Ogunleye. That year, Taylor had 18.5 sacks, Ogunleye chipped in with 9.5 sacks. This is a similar situation, it really is. Clowney having the benefit of possibly the most disruptive defensive player in the game hasn’t ever achieved double digits in sacks. BTW, Ogunleye only achieved double digit sacks once with CHI, and only once (10) in 2005. Granted, Watt hasn’t been able to stay healthy, but I’m loathe to give Clowney a huge contract when he’s never been a game changer. He’s young, he’s only 26, but where’s the beef? Understood he was injured his 1st season in 2014, and maybe had a hangover from that injury in 2015. Where’s the explosive stats after that? 24.5 sacks in 3 seasons. Sure, it’s better than what we have, but is it worthy of trading top talent away and then backing up a Brinks truck and paying him handsomely after too? I wouldn’t do it. 2015 Watt had 17.5 sacks and FIFTY QB hits. Clowney?4.5 sacks, 8 QB hits.
To me this more about getting a name than production, and as Naples mentioned, all too similar to acquiring Ndamukong Suh. I know we need help at DE, I’d rather run with the young guys who have shown some promise than really overpay twice to get Clowney, one in trade compensation and two having to pay some exorbitant contract for him over the next few years. I don’t think he’s worth it. Nothing wrong with kicking the tires, but don’t please don’t make the purchase!
Finsmob Unleashed 
Showers has shown up a few times i have watched them, but nothing interesting there really.
There’s really no downside to starting Fitz and could, potentially, be a major downside to starting Rosen. Starting Fitz makes the most sense….especially with our first 4 games. Give Rosen as much time as possible to develop. He’s still just a second year player in a new offense with new players and being asked to do things he’s never done. There’s no reason to rush him into the starting role. Plus, if Fitz plays well, it could improve his trade value if a team needs a QB. He’s not the long term answer here, but you squeeze every drop of value out of him that you can.
D,
Yeah, that was my thought too.
Mike E. says:
August 30, 2019 at 12:06 pm
The QB’s have sucked that he started ahead of too, so . . . How about finding out if the guy you just traded a 2nd RD pick for sucks or not also
Flores already addressed this. He sees them every day we see him 3 hrs a week. He knows.
Well crap a couple of my hopefuls are gone. Mbu, Davis, and Irwin. I kinda was pulling a little for Horn as well. Poling gon too 😦
Quentin Poling, Trenton Irwin Jalen Davis Reece Horn Joey Mbu and Tyler Patmon recently gone.
Thank you, Mike Tannenbaum. SMH
Its not really a bad one. Im sure someone will bite but we might have to throw some compensation or agree to pay part of his salary.
Ridiculous, why would we take a cap hit and give away compensation? Kiko doesn’t suck, he just doesn’t really fit, better to keep as depth than pay to dump him.
Panthers released RB Cameron Artis-Payne.
———————————-
this guy is a decent down hill runner. Panthers have a stacked RB group.
Kiko’s contract is appropriate. He played very well for us last year.
By my math we are at 79 right now. 90 -6 -6 +1 (and we have a fee +1 for the Neto guy) so 26 more to go….jeez
Looking for OT help, Sam Young got cut, but we don’t want him back.
I’m hoping for Irwin to get put on the practice squad. Mbu too if he is eligible.
Does getting revealed to be cut first mean they had the least chance to make it and the team is holding its faves till last so as to slip them through waivers and get them back on the PS?
————–
That SUCKS! I’d high hopes for Brice.
Hopefully he’s PS eligible… and I think he is. Hope he doesn’t get poached.
I’m one of the biggest Kiko Alonzo fans there is, and I feel he should have made the Pro-Bowl each of the last two seasons. But if he doesn’t fit with the new regime, I get it. It’s just sad that he’s too over-priced to get a good return on him.
I say keep him… but that’s just my $.02. He’s a stud in my book.
I was hoping for Butler to make it also, but he is an older guy.
I hope this means Ford makes it.
Guess so much for all the Clowney talk. I’m cool with it. My biggest flag was that he fired his agent in the middle of the whole thing. That’s not smooth operating.
Sade would not be impressed by Clowney’s moves.
power is off at my home already
You going somewhere else?
no I don’t think you or I have anything to worry about. the people in vero bch do though
You could know more than the weather geeks. Right now their best guess is Palm Beach.
Last i checked the euro model has it coming in north of vero and the other has it just south of vero, they both are not too far apart.
https://www.google.com/maps/@26.7929439,-77.81321,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m3!15m2!1m1!1s%2Fg%2F11hz_3v1pw
And two days ago they were talking Daytona. So lots of time to go. But yeah that is better for me at least.
just an outage here should come on soon
Interesting that we traded for 2 OGs.
I do believe they are for depth and insurance in case one or both of our two rooks just completely bomb.
————–
This is from the Texans’ excellent beat writer.
Clowney hasn’t signed his tender because he doesn’t want to go to work until absolutely necessary to avoid losing 1 mil per week, if he signs the tender at the last minute this should tell where his heads at
Power back on! maybe they are just doing a dri run on what’s to come. did my hurricane crap today, full tank of gas and lots of canned tuna/soup i have filtered water and lots of gallon jugs to fill.
Can’t really blame Clowney. I’d rather play for a playoff contending team and all three of his other stated options are closer than we are by regular standards. It is strange he visited but maybe the visit solidified his opinion. Our team is extremely young.
Where he has to live should have a huge impact. anyway i don’t think where he plays is his choice anyway, if he doesn’t sign the tender he loses big $ and won’t play at all, if he does he can be traded anywhere the texans deem
I don’t think where you live makes much difference at all. They make enough money that they can have a second home anywhere they want.
I dont blame him if he doesn’t want to be part of building process
But I bet the Texans aren’t real happy with him
This hurricane is like being stalked by a killer sloth!
Paxton Lynch was waived
So that didn’t work out…
Anyone know anything about the OL we traded for?
They play on offense 😆👍
Yeah, in between the Tackles.
They keep the lonely fat guy in the middle company.
Hardy har har!!!! LOL
Tim,
Isidora is a guy who is best suited getting out in space…zone blocking. He doesn’t hold up well against power. He has good size and skills….and is one of those guys who might push for a starting position if he could put it all together, but he’s probably a backup. He got a little playing time in MN but not much. I don’t know much about the other guy.
Thanks, man.
If what’s being put out there that Clowney doesn’t what to be in Miami what does that mean?
Clowney met with Flores then we must assume Clowney wasn’t buying in to the plan or didn’t get a good vibe off coach. Both not so good things, for us the faithful. Here we go again 3 years and churn.
OR
Clowney is a dick and can kiss my ass 🖕
🤷♂️
Clowney is a dick and can kiss your ass.
I am from SC, went to U of SC, Clowney was known as a jerk even as a star.
If it happens they came to terms. If not so be it.
Isidora is from a town in the Miami area, Westin, and went to the U.
My son called to remind me that his roommate in college AND for his first job grew up down the street from Isidora. They rode the bus together for years before they got old enough to drive.
MF13
I love Sade music.
If, and it’s still possible but not certain, if the Bermuda high turns Dorian loose just 4-5 hrs earlier, the cane will slub up the coast and slog into Wilmington, NC.
It has happened before.
This is far less catastrophic as a parallel rub than the directly perpendicular full frontal head-on collison of Andrew or that wicked little buzz saw Charley.
I find it shocking that Rosen played so well and Fitzpatrick did not, and yet Fitzpatrick gets the start?
It never seemed a fair competition, Rosen always got the number 2 team in practice, and even when Rosen finally got his chance to play in preseason, he thouroughly beats out Fitzpatrick, then still doesn’t get to start
Flores will start who he wants, but he is starting our second best QB
Rosen gives us a chance to win more games
And first day at work was good!, I did a sales meeting and some orientation
It’s been along time since I worked in a corporate office, all these years working for myself,
But I gotta ask, this casual Friday dress thing, wtf? I was shocked at the dress code or lack Of
One lady couldn’t afford the other half of her shorts, and another one was only wearing a half a shirt. I thought it was baywatch office, lol
Is that common nowadays? I have never seen an office like this back in the days. It was almost like a soft porn movie, damn
I don’t know about that, I think even on casual Friday has to be some mode of professionalism, lol
Guess I’m old school
Dooo dooo dooo dooo doo dooooo dooo🎶🎶🎶
Almost forgot it was Friday 🙂
!
Sports Writers have written before that when a certain football player decides not to sign with Miami after a visit that it is a serious negative commentary.
It might be.
But football players are extremely self-centered (maybe all job-seekers are) and have the luxury of shopping for what they perceive to be the best deal for themselves.
Spurning Miami does have a component of thinking Miami is not a qualtity team, but an ego-centric diva who wants Big Bucks plus an easy life might not want to play for a drill sergeant like Flores.
Of course, if he does sign with us,
I will root for him and relish his ability to take over a game and wreck an OL.
Clowney wouldn’t get the money he wants in Miami either
He is probably a better fit somewhere else, this team isn’t one player away
David, I don’t believe you unless you post pix.
j/k
nowadays that’ll get you fired.
In fact your post would too, if they knew you posted it.
I’m just there for one reason, sales, I don’t have anything to do with the admin office
Remember our current OL DeGuglielmo was the OL at Indy last year, so he knows new OG Boehm.
Good point Naples
Keeping Tunsil is a hell of a consolation prize
I’m putting on my boots so I don’t step in some bullshit 🐕
https://media1.tenor.com/images/6f7ab25f673a8a251d7dc57fc6377c10/tenor.gif?itemid=14273637
https://youtu.be/yUgvqjJrOHs
I Never heard this one before, interesting
It starts off like he took a hit of acid, then goes full death metal? Lol
It’s different than what I am accustomed Too, maybe needs an acquired taste
Flores getting second guessed,
if Fitzpatrick sucks, Flores could take a lot of heat for his questionable decision to start Fitzpatrick over the QB that beat him out
Hulk angry. Hulk no want to see Ryan Fitzpatrick play football for Miami. Every game he plays is wasted game. Hulk knows what Fitzpatrick is. He is career backup QB. He can get hot for 2-3 games but he no can carry team for 16 games. Never has never will. Hulk think Rosen outplayed Fitzpatrick. He is young and has potential. Hulk excited to see what Rosen can do. Instead Hulk turn green with rage because he have to watch sucky Fitzpatrick. Hulk just say no. Someone let Hulk know when Rosen play then maybe Hulk watch.
I don’t understand it, SMH..
Rosen EARNED the starting position, but didnt get it
Hulk think Fitzpatrick is kind of QB so that team will win enough games to have lousy draft pick but still suck
How quickly people forget Fitz was a stud for the jets just a few years ago, everyone only seems to think of last season.
I don’t expect stud from Fitz, more like get things started than we see Rosen. I think that’s what will happen.
27 cans of Beefaroni
2 cases of beer
Black and Milds
Sack
Fully prepared only to wake up this morning and see that it’s going up the coast
Hulk say long time ago rosen start first game………. hulk wrong again
on trading tunsil, the scheme offensively that miami should have depends on fitz getting rid of the ball quickly, a precise unit. i had seen that against N.O. after a big play the offense hurried to the line and snapped the ball to catch the D off guard.
N.E. doesn’t have any knock down great OL, Brady just gets rid of the ball precisely and helps his OL.
with our new offensive strategy it would seem great OL like tunsil are not that much of a need. you could plug JAG in there and be serviceable.
weighing that against 2 early picks and clowney????
I don’t know?? first off i’m soured on Clowney but come draft day with two 1s…three 2s the rest of our picks and 70 mil in cap space it may be the smart move.
C’mon Rob – They had Nate Solder for 8 seasons after drafting him in RD 1. That’s just not accurate.
Yes but they drafted him, paid him peanuts and dumped him. where is he now, 62 mil with the giants. NE does not pay OL
Stud for Jets? Oh that’s right they let him go for Luke McCown
He had one nice season for the Jets, basically that was the mirage. You can’t count on that year happening again . . . ever
Fitzpatrick starting doesn’t give me a lot of incentive to watch the team. At least if Rosen was starting I’d want to see if he does well and begins to progress. I just hate the safe play here, but it is what it is.
Be like Hulk no watch until Fitzpuke gone
He was a stud for the Jets until he got run out of town. He was a stud for the Bills until he got run out of town. He was a stud for Tampa until he got run out of town
he wasnt a stud last year or this year
stud to dud
what he did years ago should not be why he is starting now
Rosen won the QB competition, he has earned the right to start, FLores giving the job to a man that didnt earn it , is just flat out wrong for the players, the team, and the fans
I’m not sure why you keep saying that? You sound as if you’re stating a fact!
were you at all the practices?
did you watch Rosen beat out Fitz?
even if you had seen every day in training camp are you even qualified to make that assertion?
Obviously Fitz beat out Rosen in the mind of Flores who is qualified to make that call.
yes i watched Rosen beat out Fitz in preseason
i did not go to all the practices where Rosen was stuck working with the 2’s, which was bs
this has never been a fair competition
I want the best man to start for Miami, obviously that’s Fitz. can’t wait for the season to start, i’ll be glued to the TV
You mean the guy who was outplayed by Rosen is the best man to start? Hulk confused
Rosen won the competition, he should be starting
fitz was the backup in tampa last year until winston had to do a 3 game suspension
fitz led the bucs to 2 wins on the season in his 8 starts
You guys can always tune in to see whether it’s 4 TD’s or 4 INT’s?
There’s a 50/50 shot!
^ pretty much
There is no future for this team with Fitzpatrick. We are not going to win this season. Every start Fitzpatrick makes is a wasted development opportunity for Rosen
agreed
Rob – Solder was there for EIGHT years. They paid him one nice contract after his rookie contract expired. They let him go after that contract. We can do the same with Tunsil. He’s one of the best LT’s in the game, no reason to lose him.
they paid him 10 mil per year, 6+ signing bonus after his rookie contract with 19 mil guaranteed, peanuts for a cornerstone LT, and then he moved on, if he was so valuable why didn’t they pay him the 62 mil he got from NY?
They paid him market value at that time. They elected not to go whole hog on his 3rd contract. Last I looked we don’t have Brady or anything remotely close. If Rosen isn’t even the 2nd best QB on the team, you have faith in the guys that spent a 2nd RD pick on him to make other football decisions?
I’m not sure Rosen is even the 2nd best QB on that roster
Says who wants to trade Tunsil
I never said that?
where did you get that information? was it the same source that said Rosen will start game 1?
questioning Flores after You defended him? lmao ok
dont worry, You arent the only one questioning Flores, many are
I don’t think Miami wants to trade Tunsil unless the offer is so ridiculous that they can’t say no. And as long as Clowney doesn’t sign the tag, it’s irrelevant. If he signs it and the trade is made, he’s here for a year and that’s okay. He will have to put unhappiness aside and play lights out to get the contract he wants the following year. A one year rental with them giving us a pirate’s haul wouldn’t be a bad thing. That said, I still don’t want Clowney.
Mike, i’ve read where NE doesn’t pay for high priced OL, that Brady makes his OL look great when reading the pros and cons of trading Tunsil.
And you think Fitzpatrick will make this OL look great. Give me what you are smoking
comparing fitz to brady? are you qualified to make that kind of comparison?
Fitzpatrick has certainly had good games, but overall he boasts a 59.8 completion percentage, a 177:136 touchdown-to-interception ratio, has fumbled 66 times, and has averaged out to an 80.6 passer rating during his time in the league. He’s a quality backup quarterback (that’s why he’s been around as long as he has), but Fitzpatrick has never been able to prove himself as a long-term starter.
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/9/17/17868196/ryan-fitzpatrick-fitzmagic-jameis-winston-buccaneers-starting-quarterback-job
Tasing Tunsil would be as a stupid as naming Fitzpatrick as your starting QB … oh wait a minute
Trading Tunsil I mean although tasing him would be pretty stupid too
lol i hope Tunsil does not get tased too
Not entirely. If next year’s draft class is heavy in quality OL (reportedly is) and you are going to have to give Tunsil a very large contract next year (they will) and your expectations are low for this year anyway and you are offered a King’s ransom for Tunsil, why not?
Because Tunsil will be better and more polished than any rooki OL we draft and we still have other positions on the OL we need to upgrade
Don’t tase me bro
I’m taking the Whatever route this year!
In every aspect of the game!
At least you guys don’t have to set and listen to 2 cowboys fans every night while watching the Astro’s!
That is the one game we better win!
Or I’m gonna need some assistance from BBM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good points
I have to take shit from Jets fans, since they were probably better than the Dolphins this season.
there is not an OL in next years draft that will be superior to Tunsil
Tunsil isnt the player that needs to be traded, he is the guy you keep til he retires
from just looking at 3 preseason games where Rosen got the bulk of the playing time i would not have a clue who the best man for the job is. I would defer to the coaches who see them every day.
this coach and the players have one thing in common, they want to win, if they don’t they will have a short shelf life. they will play the best man for the job without a doubt.
obviously Fitz is that guy.
this shouldn’t even be in question.
you admit You have no clue, then say obviously its Fitz
here is a question for You, which QB led the team on a 99 yard drive when he relieved the guy that played an entire first half and even some of the third?
thats the best QB< and no, Rosen did NOT get the most time in that game, it just looked like it because Fitz kept doing consecutive three and outs, over and over, HE SUCKS
No I don’t have a clue and neither do you. But Fitz won the job!
don’t go by what happened in preseason it’s all fools gold, you don’t know who was in the game against Rosen when he shined. Rosen did get the bulk of playing time, twice as much as Fitz, that’s a fact.
did u watch game 3? fitz played into the third quarter !
it just did not seem like he got much time, because Fitz could not move the team like Rosen did
Rosen did more in his first drive then Fitz did for an entire half, where he got about 8 possessions
this wasnt even close, Fitz was horrible, and Rosen was awesome
Yes i did David, Fitz played against the first team jax, Rosen didn’t, Jax has a great DL, apples and oranges
Ken says:
August 31, 2019 at 8:41 am
And you think Fitzpatrick will make this OL look great
______________________________________
I think the entire offensive scheme may have an effect on making the OL look good and minimizing the need to kill the cap for a great LT or at least that’s what i have read.
they will have to back the money truck up to tunsil very soon.
we arent in cap trouble, this is the team with the lowest payroll
Hulk angry. He needs to get ready to smash something in kickboxing class. Hulk out
shula made the same mistake, and paid for it
Shula started David Woodley over Dan Marino, WTF SMH
Great minds think alike!
HELLO FITZ WON THE JOB….HELLOOOOO
________________________________________
Ken says:
August 31, 2019 at 8:37 am
Tasing Tunsil would be as a stupid as naming Fitzpatrick as your starting QB
______________________________________________
Ken says:
August 31, 2019 at 8:20 am
You mean the guy who was outplayed by Rosen
____________________________________________
David C (@DolphinsSB52) says:
August 31, 2019 at 8:22 am
Rosen won the competition, he should be starting
many people feel that Fitzpatrick, was given the job, at no point in time is there any evidence that he won it outright
as for tunsil trade there’s a lot more that gores into considering it.
you have to add that he will need to get paid soon, if you can get a kings ransom for him now and draft his replacement who will be on a rookie deal for 5 years, that has to be a consideration
RIP Rhoda
Valerie Harper
RIP Rhoda
Dude, we’re getting old . . .
I really don’t have a horse in this race. I think a case can be made on either side. I can see Flores’ reasoning in starting Fitz. I would have understood the logic in starting Rosen too.
***
Rosen is the guy. Fitz is and always has been a very short term plug. Rosen will be playing sooner or later. Letting him continue to learn and stew a little about not starting and maybe get a picture of how he handles that situation…..is not a bad idea. Is he a selfish player who can’t lead? Or, has he matured and will be a great teammate and show those qualities that have been questioned thus far? I don’t care who starts the season. It’s about who finishes it.
They want Rosen to see a few game films with Fitz running the offense, I told you guys this months ago.
ORob
Of course the coaches and players want to win and are focusing on that goal. That should always be the case. But, Ross has already said he understands that we may need to take a few steps back to get there. He knows we’re more than likely gonna lose. These guys don’t need to win now to keep their jobs, if Ross is true to his word. He gives these guys time to turn it around even if we lose 10 games this year.
i understand that however these coaches and players have a brand to protect, that’s why they make decisions to give them the best chance to win and falling back on the convo that rosen is the best man for the job is not accurate.
If someone can explain to me how a QB will more ready by sitting for 5 games, getting much fewer reps in practice each week, I’d like to know the thinking behind it. I understand the concept that he can watch Fitz run the offense and see what, and what not to do, but he’ll be getting fewer reps in practice which has to hurt too.
Nuances Mike, he learns things and gets a chance to see why certain things are done the way they are done. Plus it’s a little bit of a mind fuck to keep the pouty Rosen hungry.
where did this “5 games” come from?
Rob – Some people think Rosen will start after the BYE.
Is that a surprise? I thought they were talking about that early on
Surprise to me!
but I don’t pay attention to other teams much?
MikeE,
I almost always favor letting a guy play, so I get where you’re coming from. On the other side of that, sometimes it’s about more than just skill on the field. It might be about growth, in general or intangibles, for instance. But in terms of skills, just for example, Rosen is being asked to call out the Mike when he’s never done it before. You could see him struggling with it and changing what he said on the field in games. He’s still learning. He looked fine, but he looked like a guy still learning the offense.
***
Remember when new QBs came in and didn’t play for years? I know that’s old school and nobody believes it is the way anymore, but it was done that way because it had value. He’ll get his reps….and grow as a man and a QB, hopefully.
That’s a good answer. I do remember, it was just about a given that a newly drafted QB, even a top 10 pick would sit for a while.
unless Fitz plays really bad or gets injured i would think he’ll be the starter the whole year
should see the rest of the cuts today, will be interesting to see the wr & RB corp….do we carry 3 qbs on the 53?
Sonny – I’m not a fan of the mind fuck. I want Flores to grab Rosen by the shoulders, face to face and tell him “Son, I believe in you, but you need to work your ass off learning the offense and watching defensive film, and you need to LEAD this team” “Now go be the QB and win us some football games!!!”
ORob,
Flores doesn’t seem like a guy too concerned with his brand, but we do hear that a lot these days. It’s contrary to building a team, so i’d hope they weed that shit out quick. What if what’s good for the team isn’t good for your personal brand? Do you take one for the team or be selfish and polish your brand? Are you a leader or a guy who can’t be trusted?
i don’t see how that wouldn’t go hand in hand. whatever is good for flores brand should be good for the team.
He’s even commented on “tanking” that’s not what he’s about.
if Rosen would have hands down beat Fitz i think he would be starting.
That said….not sure how far apart the Fitz/Rosen battle was, if it was close he may want to go with the vet to protect Rosen and let him grow a little unlike the cards.
not to mention Fitz has a contract that pays him 7mil guaranteed so why not let him take the brunt of the battle with inferior talent around him.
not sure what goes into Flores decision making though
I think, sooner or later, Fitz will have bad games, and Rosen will get his shot. What he does with it is up to him. I hope we see 50 carries a game and the QB is invisible. Lol
I’m OK with this!
Better keep that fullback then
will Laird make the 53?
It would be a nice sign of change if he did
I keep him over Walton!
UCF er
???????