ABSOLUTE PERFECTION – THE 1972 MIAMI DOLPHINS – GAME 4

By: Randy Campbell (Old Dolfan)

GAME 4: OCTOBER 8, 1972 – MIAMI at NEW YORK JETS

The Miami Dolphins 3-0 start captured the attention of football fans everywhere. Upset road wins over Kansas City and Minnesota resulted in rampant speculation concerning Miami’s status as a legitimate Super Bowl contender. Could a team in just their seventh year of existence, from the “inferior” American Football League, actually WIN the most prestigious trophy in American Sports?

No discussion of THE PERFECT SEASON is complete without a thorough understanding of the most important football game ever played — Super Bowl III in the historic Orange Bowl.  From 1960 through 1965 the NFL t_33894-150x150and the AFL were locked in a death struggle. Each league held its own separate draft of college football players. The top players could (and DID) play one league’s offer against the other league’s offer, escalating rookie player salaries to amazing levels.  In 1965, the New York Jets, owned by Sonny Werblin, offered Alabama’s All-American quarterback Joe Namath the unprecedented sum of $450,000 to sign a contract (the NFL’s Cardinals had offered less than $200,000 — an amount Namath was ready to sign for).  This one incident, more than any other factor, brought about a merger of the two leagues. It also led to a common draft and somewhat controlled salaries for pro football players.  The two leagues agreed that an AFL-NFL World Championship game would be played, beginning in January of 1967. By 1969, the name of this game had been changed to “The Super Bowl.”

Traditional old-guard football experts agreed that the NFL likely would destroy the champs of the younger AFL.  In the first two Super Bowls, Lombardi’s Packers blew-out the Kansas City Chiefs (35-10) and Al Davis’ Oakland Raiders (33-14), the latter game having been played in the Orange Bowl.  A year later, the Super Bowl returned to the Orange Bowl for what most believed would be another lopsided win by the NFL.  This time, young head coach Don Shula and his Baltimore Colts would represent the NFL. Shula had overcome the loss to injury of stellar quarterback John Unitas by replacing him with the man who was voted the NFL’s Most Valuable Player — Earl Morrall.

At the same time, young Joe Namath had finally lived up to his superstar image (and salary) by leading the upstart Jets to the Super Bowl in his fourth professional season.  No one outside of New York thought the Jets had a prayer in Super Bowl III.  Namath and his team mates watched as joe-namath-150x150the spread rose to 15, then 16, then 17 points in Las Vegas.  Jimmy the Greek Snyder said “It will be a 21-point spread by game time. The Jets have NO CHANCE!”  At a banquet in Miami a few days before the game, a reporter asked Namath, “What do you think about being almost a 3-touchdown underdog?”  Namath responded with perhaps the MOST FAMOUS QUOTE IN PRO FOOTBALL HISTORY; “We’re going to win this game, I GUARANTEE IT,” said the cocky Namath!  A hush fell over the banquet.  Colts players JoeNamath1-150x150who were at this banquet literally stood up and glared at Namath.  It was “Game On!”  The media frenzy that followed exceeded anything ever seen before in South Florida.  In fact, Super Bowl III became the most anticipated sporting event in Sunshine State history up to that time!  As we all know, Joe Namath delivered on his guarantee.  He talked the talk!  He walked the walk!  The 3-touchdown underdog Jets prevailed over the NFL’s Colts 16-7.  When the Kansas City Chiefs repeated the Jets’ success by crushing the favored Vikings in Super Bowl IV, the verdict was in.  The AFL had two Super Bowl wins; the NFL had two Super Bowl wins.  The following season, the two leagues totally merged, ending the separate league format.  By now, it was understood that the best teams in the AFL could “play with, and BEAT, the best teams in the NFL.”  This gave added importance to the Dolphins-Jets showdown in New York.

 

Joe Namath was still the ultimate sports icon the day the undefeated Dolphins arrived at Shea Stadium to play the Jets.  In week#1 of the season Namath led New York to a 41-24 win over Buffalo.  In week #2, Namath passed for 496 yards and SIX TOUCHDOWNS as the Jets outscored the highly regarded Colts 44-34.  Many in New York believed THIS would be the year Namath would get the Jets back to the Super Bowl!  (P.S.-Jets fans are STILL waiting 43 years later!)

 

Miami knew they would have to control the Jets’ high octane offense.  Shula developed a two pronged approach.  First, he planned to make more use of a back-up wide receiver in some three and four wide schemes.  His name was Howard Twilley.  Yes, this was the same Twilley who made two clutch receptions in Miami’s last gasp winning drive the week before in Minnesota.  Shula believed the Jets would focus on stopping Warfield and Briscoe.  He believed Twilley and the number four receiver, Otto Stowe, would have opportunities for big plays. If these plays worked, Namath’s offense would spend more time on the bench while Miami controlled the ball.  The second prong involved some wrinkles with the “No Name Defense.”  Defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger and Shula installed some new defensive coverages they believed would slow down Namath’s decision making process.  Dropping #53 Bob Matheson back into coverage was sure to disrupt some of New York’s medium-range pass patterns. And including Lloyd Mumphord as a fifth defensive back was added to the mix for a large number of defensive plays.

 

On the game’s first drive, Namath seemed unaffected by Miami’s defensive strategies.  Several Namath completions set up Cliff McClain’s apparent run for a touchdown.  But just before crossing the goal line, McClain fumbled.  Jets guard Randy Rasmussen fell on the ball in the end zone and the Jets had an early 7-0 lead.  The Dolphins offense sputtered in the opening quarter.  Jets fans celebrated as their defense stopped Miami cold.  But, in the second period, Griese hit Twilley with a 16 yard completion.  Then, Griese hit Warfield in stride for 24 more yards.  On third and 14 from the Jets 16, Griese was on target to a wide open Twilley and the game was tied. The three and four wide schemes were GrieseBob50-190x300giving New York problems.  Griese decided to stick with them.  On their next offensive series Griese threw an 8-yard completion to Warfield at Miami’s 46. Then he hit Marv Fleming for 12 yards and Otto Stowe for 18 yards.  From the 6, Jim Kiick burst through a small crease in the line for a touchdown!  The noisy Jets’ crowd became quiet as Miami tool a 14-7 halftime lead.  A Yepremian 27-yard field goal extended the Dolphins lead to 17-7.  Namath reportedly told fullback Matt Snell, “We’ve got to respond NOW!”  And respond they did.  From the Jets 47, Namath launched a high arching bomb right on the money to speedy Jerome Barkum.  Dick Anderson dragged Barkum to the turf about 6 inches short of Miami’s goal line!  Namath tried to sneak the ball across the goal line.  He was stopped for no gain.  Jets fans were roaring!  Next, Cliff McClain was STUFFED, inches short!  All-pro back Matt Snell then appeared to be stopped short, but the Jets were guilty of offsides and the ball was moved back just outside the 5.  So Namath tried a pass.  Jake Scott broke it up!  Incredibly, on fourth and goal, the Jets WENT FOR THE TOUCHDOWN!  This time, loud Jets’ fans seemed to cause their own team an illegal procedure penalty! The ball was moved back another 5 yards from where Bobby Howfield made a chip-shot field goal.  Instead of getting seven points, the Jets had to settle for three!  17-10, Miami.

 

On the ensuing kick-off, Mercury Morris returned the ball to Miami’s 40.  Big runs by Larry Csonka ate several minutes off the clock.  Then, a 23-yard completion to Warfield set-up a 3 yard TD run by Jim Kiick early in the fourth quarter.  It was now Dolphins-24, Jets-10.  Seemingly, Miami had the game won.  But Dolphins-Jets games almost NEVER go as planned.  Sure enough, Miami’s Charlie Leigh fumbled a Jets punt and gave them life!  Quickly, Joe Namath led New York down the field.  Emerson Boozer roared in from a yard away and the Jets trailed 24-17.  The noise from Jets’ fans was deafening!!  One fan held up a sign that said “3-1.”  But not to worry.  No miracles today.  A Garo Yepremian 43-yard field goal later in the fourth quarter sealed the deal. The “No Name Defense” stopped the Jets one more time and Miami secured a 27-17 victory at Shea Stadium.

 

Both sides agreed the key point in the game was Miami’s goal line stand.  f981fceddb3c3e73165746a987a1b7d608113e5c“Any time you’ve got first down with 6 inches to go and have to settle for a field goal, you’ve got a problem.  It takes something out of you,” said a somber Namath.  For the day, Namath was only 12 for 25 for 152 yards and NO touchdowns.  Once, again, Larry Csonka rushed for over 100 yards.  And Jim Kiick ran for two scores.  Bob Griese outplayed Namath in this battle of future Hall of Fame quarterbacks.  His numbers, 15 for 27 for 220 yards were highlighted by four clutch receptions by Howard Twilley, including a 16 yard catch for the only passing touchdown of the game.  For his efforts, Twilley was awarded the game ball in this match-up of first and second place AFC East teams.  In the post game locker room, Shula said he was pleased to be undefeated with a two game lead in the division.  “We have a lot more winning to do,” said the Don of Miami.  Soon, very soon, the personnel Miami would use to win would change drastically.  A potentially catastrophic injury was just around the corner. The 1972 Miami Dolphins were now 4-0.

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144 Responses to ABSOLUTE PERFECTION – THE 1972 MIAMI DOLPHINS – GAME 4

  1. dbolt48 says:

    First…nice to read this again OD.

  2. dbolt48 says:

    If Miami is going the route of smaller fast LBs then Elija of KSU is probably in play RDs 2-3.

  3. Brian in NY says:

    22: R1P22
    DL JONATHAN ALLEN
    ALABAMA
    54: R2P22
    LB JARRAD DAVIS
    FLORIDA
    97: R3P33
    C TYLER ORLOSKY
    WEST VIRGINIA
    166: R5P22
    WR RYAN SWITZER
    NORTH CAROLINA
    178: R5P34
    EDGE JOSH CARRAWAY
    TCU
    184: R5P40
    G JESSAMEN DUNKER
    TENNESSEE STATE
    206: R6P22
    EDGE BRYAN COX
    FLORIDA

  4. Brian in NY says:

    Nice job OD. The part about the 1st and goal was an interesting fact I wasn’t aware of. I remember being in junior high in the 80’s, and reading a book repeatedly during study hall on the Dolphins perfect season that gave a detailed explanation of each game of the season.

  5. Brian in NY says:

    File this under the moron category:
    Ravens safety Matt Elam was arrested on three drug-related charges early Sunday morning in Miami .

    Elam was booked at 3:45 a.m. on charges of possession of more than 20 grams of marijuana, possession with intent to sell or deliver, and possession of a controlled substance. He is currently being held in Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center in Miami.

    Police records show that Elam was initially pulled over for reckless driving.

  6. Mike E. says:

    Bri, D-Bolt

    Do you think Switzer can last to the 5th when we pick? If so, can he replace Stills if we don’t re-sign him?

  7. Tim Knight says:

    Nah the Pats will just sign a soccer player who once caught a football and turn him into an 80-100 catch guy nobody can cover. LOL

  8. Rhino says:

    I’m late on this topic, but very happy to see the compensatory picks we got. I’m sure the F.O. had a good hunch on what we’d get, and thus not worried about entering the draft with only 4 picks.

    • Tim Knight says:

      They originally put it out there last year they thought they’d get a 3, 4 and 7 so a 3 and two 5s was pretty close.

    • stangerx says:

      Least hoping they had that hunch. Was so against the Carroo trade with three good and young WR’s already in the fold. Turns out we end up with a normal draft slate, plenty of FA money, and Carroo too. Almost like these days they are thinking moves down the road like in a chess. 🙂

      • I know Carroo didn’t do much in his first year with the team but it was going to be difficult for him to see the field with what we had as a rookie. He’s going to be an EXCELLENT wr for this team so I don’t have a problem with the pick at all.

      • stangerx says:

        My main problem was with the trade rather than who we picked, but that included at a position that was not a need. At the time figured it meant they were setting up not to re-sign Stills and planning ahead, Then Stills had a fine season that hopefully kept Carroo not in the 4 receiver fresh rotation thought we would see.

        And heck yeah am hoping they think Carroo is the real deal, even if Stills might not right now.

  9. Tim Knight says:

    Does anyone know where the list of draft picks by team is? I usually use The Great Blue North Draft Report for that because they are usually on top of that. But their listings are messed up and incomplete at the moment.

    • Tim Knight says:

      Okay I found it.
      Our draft:
      1. #22
      2. #54
      3. #97
      5a. #166
      5b. #178
      5c. #184
      6. #206

      We’ll be trading our 7th #240 to JAC for Thomas.

      • Brian in NY says:

        You could have saved yourself some time and scrolled up:
        Brian in NY says:
        February 26, 2017 at 9:25 am
        22: R1P22
        DL JONATHAN ALLEN
        ALABAMA
        54: R2P22
        LB JARRAD DAVIS
        FLORIDA
        97: R3P33
        C TYLER ORLOSKY
        WEST VIRGINIA
        166: R5P22
        WR RYAN SWITZER
        NORTH CAROLINA
        178: R5P34
        EDGE JOSH CARRAWAY
        TCU
        184: R5P40
        G JESSAMEN DUNKER
        TENNESSEE STATE
        206: R6P22
        EDGE BRYAN COX
        FLORIDA

  10. Tim Knight says:

    Stanger, what the Carroo trade showed us was that we were following our board, not drafting for “need”. So we traded back into the 3rd to get him. You have to pony up in a trade like that because Minnesota was losing a 3rd in 2016.

    • stangerx says:

      We traded our 6th last year plus our 3rd and 4th this year for a low-end 3rd round pick. Carroo might have stood on our board to them as a steal at that spot, but to me at least a deal like that turns more wheeler dealer than just following your board like we move up a round to get it done.

      • Tim Knight says:

        Well teams don’t make trades just for the hell of it. They have to really like the prospect. It all comes down to what kind of player Carroo becomes.

      • Tim Knight says:

        We also still ended up with two 6th round picks anyway. I really believe the team felt the talent pool dried up around the 5th round and decided to go with more late rd picks to maximize the odds of hitting on one or two. So we added 4 players in the top 3 rounds, then 4 players in the 6th and 7th rounds. We’ll see how that pans out.

      • stangerx says:

        I’d never heard of Carroo in my life before that. Can only repeat was not for the trade when it came out, especially at that position. But for sure in the war room they were going “that’s our guy.” I am the plan for the future type, and that includes trading away present picks for more down the road like the Pats did in the past. Figure that is how you build a sustainable contending franchise. So would much rather have been on the other end of that trade.

    • Brian in NY says:

      Tim,
      Ponying up for a guy who was going to be no better than WR#4 now stands as an ill advised trade.

  11. Mike E. says:

    Tim Knight says:
    February 26, 2017 at 11:58 am (Edit)

    Nah the Pats will just sign a soccer player who once caught a football and turn him into an 80-100 catch guy nobody can cover. LOL
    *******************
    Hey, we signed a soccer player that no one can tackle! 😀

  12. Tim Knight says:

    Brian, I can’t trust those mocks when you guys make trades and shit. LOL

  13. Mike E. says:

    I’d like to see Carroo be a bigger part of the picture. If not, that was a major fuck-up making that trade. In fact, it will piss me off big time if this kid doesn’t take a huge step forward this season. I don’t think he’s the replacement for Stills, he’s a different type of receiver, but I would still like to see him get a lot more touches.

  14. Tim Knight says:

    Brian, I only count 7 picks for the Pats.

  15. Mike E. says:

    Tim, Brian

    I agree with the Matthews comparison, but he better show up a lot faster than Matthews did. When you make that kind of investment in one player, I feel like your obligated to get that kid up to speed quickly, to get value out of your investment. Sitting this kid another year will infuriate me, especially if DP doesn’t get his ass in gear!

  16. Mike E. says:

    Lou

    Carroo was the main target for that team, and he played very well for Rutgers. I’d question the level of competition he played against though.

    • Brian in NY says:

      The problem is, with Stills here, he just won’t see the field that much unless someone gets injured. Even with Parker injured, he didn’t play much.

    • Brian in NY says:

      Like I’ve said, giving up that investment for a WR4 isn’t a smart move. I know you feel the same way.

  17. Tim Knight says:

    Well before Matthews got hurt in 2015 he was balling for us. If Carroo can be what Matthews was in 2015 then we’re good to go. 43-662 15.4 4TD in 11 games.

    • Brian in NY says:

      No one will complain about that. I just think it’s going to be tough for him to put up those numbers if we re-sign Stills.

      • Tim Knight says:

        Sure and if we’re winning and he provides good depth for us who cares? 🙂

      • Brian in NY says:

        I jus think we needed depth at other positions Tim, that move struck me as a luxury pick you’d expect from one of the top teams in the league.

  18. Mike E. says:

    I think Carroo can easily be a Mohammed Sanu type of player as well, but tougher, kind of like a Sanu/Boldin hybrid. If Parker doesn’t start playing like an alpha, maybe Carroo will.

    • Brian in NY says:

      Boldin I can definitely see. That’s a really good comparison Mike.

      • Tim Knight says:

        I wanted to keep it more realistic than comparing him to Boldin who was one of the best WRs in the game for a bunch of years. 🙂

    • Tim Knight says:

      I think Parker has to mature and learn how to be a pro – taking care of his body better. He flashes elite ability just not consistent enough. He turned 24 in January, still a young buck.

  19. Mike E. says:

    Caroo is actually a lot faster than either Sanu or Boldin though

  20. stangerx says:

    What can I do other than read the tea leaves?……but never stopped me before. If we re-sign Stills, good sign for him but not a good one for what we have in Carroo. If we don’t keep Stills, then good sign on Carroo but also means there will be some pure speed guy to stretch as an option, but heck that could be Grant.

    • Mike E. says:

      Could be on both Stanger. If Stills starts getting really expensive, you have to wonder if it’s worth it for us.

      • stangerx says:

        My most likely choice is that someone out prices us for Stills. Also thinking that whatever team does will get less than they thought they paid for. But you are right that mean Carroo’s worth still left in question. Still thinking his main job was run real fast and take his CB out of the play though. Not like he was facing doubles.

      • lol. he did his job. how many times did I see people complain that our wr’s weren’t getting open and Stills does his job and now it’s “he got open because of the others”.

        No matter who you’ve got on offense you’re going to have a guy who will, from time to time, benefit from those around them. it’s going to happen. but, to say Stills was benefiting from others around him without thinking the others were also benefiting from his presence doesn’t make sense.

        teams knew he was the go to guy for scoring and they still couldn’t stop him. so, he did his job.

      • stangerx says:

        You can laugh all you want Lou. Let me say it again…..think Stills is a very good player, would like to keep him, and a real asset to the team. Why is that funny?

        We are just talking about what he might be worth in a FA contract. Get that you think more and me less, but aren’t those kind of talks why we are here?

    • Someone commented the other day that Stills lives a very simple life, not very extravagant at all, and he’s not going to be looking for a huge payday. Said he probably would re-sign with the team for around $6.5M.

      I don’t know how true that is but, even if he would take it, I’m wondering if he is still in their plans going forward. I think the guy can score more with this offense in it’s 2nd year and scoring is what it’s all about.

      Like someone mentioned earlier, we put together an offense that can pretty much move the ball at will and we’ll have an easier time on defense.

      • stangerx says:

        No doubt on the last, but if Stills is humble in his demands then seems his agent doesn’t want to put that out. But all part of the game.

  21. Mike E. says:

    Bri

    Agree with the luxury pick. If he fell in our laps in the 3rd RD, that’s one thing, but they traded away to valuable picks in addition to the actual pick in the 3rd RD, so saying it was a luxury pick rings true.

    • Tim Knight says:

      Why is this year’s 3rd more valuable than the one we used on Carroo though? At the end of the day we gave up a 2017 4th for him because we added a 3rd we didn’t have in 2016, traded a 2016 6th as well but still ended up with two 6th rd picks. So if you look at it from a numbers game, the trade was really just for a 4th.

      • stangerx says:

        Cause this year’s third as it ended up was going to be there anyhow. Trade was still what it was — our 6th last year plus our 3rd and 4th this year for a low-end 2016 3rd round pick. Seems they made the trade with that in mind though.

      • Tim Knight says:

        I’m talking net/loss in the big scheme of things. There is this idea we traded everything away yet we turned 7 picks into 8 last year and ended up with 8 this year – we will trade our 7th to JAC for Thomas though.

        You’re leaving out that we traded for an additional 3rd in 2016 to select Carroo. So that pick and the 3rd we send MIN this year is a wash. When you still have two 6th round picks after trading a 6th, there is no loss there. So a 2017 4th was our net loss in the deal.

      • stangerx says:

        Caught you were talking about how it ended up overall (which shows great planning as to the grand scheme on why they could make the trade). Was just talking about the trade for what it was. How did I “leave “out that we traded for an additional 3rd in 2016 to select Carroo.” Thought that was the “low-end 2016 3rd round pick” we took him with. Not trying to be a hard ass, but….confused.

  22. Mike E. says:

    Lou

    Stills won’t be determining his payday, other teams will be. If Philly is as interested as the word on the street is, they may escalate his salary even if they don’t get him, and that might make someone else step up to give it to him. I’d be surprised if we go to $8M per if it goes there.

  23. Tim Knight says:

    Here’s a suggested market value for Stills and why.
    http://phi.247sports.com/Bolt/Calculating-Kenny-Stills-market-value-51458974

    • stangerx says:

      And even if don’t buy into these so much cause stat crunching is different — “reports” where that he would go in the $8-10 mil range…..if so his agent did a good job.

    • Brian in NY says:

      If we can sign him for $6.5 million then I’d do it. Anything north of $ 8 million, and I’m not even thinking twice about letting him walk.

      • stangerx says:

        I’m right with you there, including with the middle on where I might not be bitching but will be thinking glad Stills is on the team.

  24. so Omar is reporting that Zach Brown has domestic violence and drug issues.

  25. Mike E. says:

    Lou

    I believe you completely that Stills doesn’t care and may be happy in MIA, but I’d like to see him turn down $8M per to stay here for $6.5M per. That would freak me out entirely.

  26. Tim Knight says:

    Stanger, we traded a 2017 3rd #86 for a 2016 3rd #86. That’s a wash to me. Does the 6th really matter being that we still had two? I’m looking at it from a gain/loss perspective at the end of the day. The only “void” from that deal for us is a 2017 4th.

    • Brian in NY says:

      It’s not just the picks for me Tim, it was the position. If Stills walks and he turns out to be a stud then it’s not a big deal. I like to have more picks in one draft because it gives you more chances to hit.

    • Brian in NY says:

      Additionally, those picks could have been used this year to move up for a position of true need..Tough to do that now.

    • stangerx says:

      “we traded a 2017 3rd #86 for a 2016 3rd #86.”

      How did we get a 2016 3rd pick? I thought that was a comp pick that the news came out about a few days go rather than from rather than from the Vikes trade. But have been wrong many times before. And sorry if I got that wrong.

      • Brian in NY says:

        He’s talking about the pick we got and took Caroo with- we didn’t have a 3rd last year.

      • stangerx says:

        My bad — meant our 2017 third one. Far as I know it was not a comp pick and not part of the trade. And even if my fingers moved to fast once again…..pointed out what the actual trade was above.

  27. Mike E. says:

    Tim

    What I’m saying is, it seemed as if they really needed Carroo, making that trade. He’s was basically an afterthought though during the season. What was the necessity?

    • Brian in NY says:

      There wasn’t one. I think they fell in love with him as a player, and they made a rash decision.

      • Mike E. says:

        I think it was a Mike Tradey-Pants special. I think he saw a player he liked, and he just loves the trading game action so much, he couldn’t help but do it.

    • Tim Knight says:

      Well you never know how a prospect is going to pan out whenever you draft them. He may become a necessity this year. If Carroo doesn’t develop into anything significant, that trade didn’t pan out. It happens.

      The two voids we ended up with from our trades last year were a 2016 4th to move up in the 2nd to land Howard, and a 2017 4th for Carroo. We traded out of the 5th last year as well and after a few more deals ended up with two 6s and two 7s. But we chose to do that.

  28. Mike E. says:

    We traded our 2017 3rd and 4th RD picks to get back into the 3rd last year to get Carroo. I’d sure rather have those picks now, unless of course they work hard to get Carroo involved this year.

  29. Tim Knight says:

    Stanger, we have our #97 comp 3rd this year. We’re sending MIN our #86 which ended up being for their #86 last year.

    Brian, we did have a 3rd last year we selected Drake with our own. We then traded back into the 3rd for Carroo.

    • stangerx says:

      Tim — think got that, even if did not know the picks would match up like that.

      Would you trade Carroo right now for the #86 plus our scheduled 4th rounder plus a 5th (which is what last year’s 6th is now worth)? I know 20/20 comes with wisdom, but that is the general worth of him in this draft.

      • Tim Knight says:

        I don’t look at it like that. I don’t view draft picks to be the same, better or worse from year to year because nobody knows what the value is in any draft until they get on the field, and then it’s usually a 3 year evaluation. Like I said earlier: “If Carroo doesn’t develop into anything significant, that trade didn’t pan out. It happens.”

        The same with Howard – if he doesn’t become a quality corner we missed on that deal as well. Time will tell. It’s about players who make your team better, not just numbered draft picks that everyone gets excited about this time of year. Plenty of picks bust out. You need to hit on more than you don’t. We shall see.

      • stangerx says:

        Wasn’t asking you to view it that way other than the Q if right now you would take that trade right now going into the draft.

        And I was very pleased with last year’s draft if it helps….think it might be one we point back to as an awesome one ten years from now. Just was not with that trade.

  30. Tim Knight says:

    Here’s the way I’m looking at our draft from last year’s trades and this year.
    2016
    1.
    2.
    3a.
    3b.+
    4.-
    5.-
    6a.
    6b.+
    7a.
    7b.+

    2017
    1.
    2.
    3a.-
    3b.
    4.-
    5a.
    5b.+
    5c.+
    6.
    7. (traded to JAC for Thomas)

    • Tim Knight says:

      Shit, correction.
      2016
      1.
      2.
      3a.
      3b.+
      4.-
      5.-
      6a.-
      6b.
      6c.+
      7a.
      7b.+

      2017
      1.
      2.
      3a.-
      3b.
      4.-
      5a.
      5b.+
      5c.+
      6.
      7. (traded to JAC for Thomas)

  31. Tim Knight says:

    The big part of everything we did in the draft last year is what we get out of that draft class and all 8 players are still on the team. Tunsil, Howard, Drake, Carroo, Grant, Lucas, Doughty and Duarte.

    Then we’ll see how we use the 7 draft picks we have this year.

    • And the important thing about it is you can see the majority of those players making contributions whether as starters or as special teams players. Out of all those players Doughty’s probably the only one who won’t have an opportunity to contribute.

      But, Tunsil is our future at LT. Howard is the future at one cb position. Drake is our change of pace back and can return kicks. Carroo, imo, will be a very good starting wr for us. They’re going to find ways to use Grant in the offense and when he’s in there it’s just going to add another dimension to things that’s going to free up other guys and we’re going to be able to take advantage of that. Lucas could end up being our new nickel back and Duarte could add to the passing game as well.

      Some of that is speculation, but we got the players we wanted in that draft and just about every one should make a contribution. There’s no doubt in my mind we will be better this year because of this draft class.

      If we have a draft anywhere close to that this year we are going to be a perennial playoff contender.

      • Tim Knight says:

        I have the same optimism although I admit some of it is just that.
        Tunsil – hopefully a cornerstone LT for a decade
        Howard – a starting corner for years to come
        Drake – like you said a change of pace back and KR
        Carroo – a productive WR within this season or the next couple of years
        Grant – speedy return man and hopefully more a part of the offense
        Lucas – similar to Michael Thomas, a role DB, gotta play STs
        Doughty – maybe with a year under his belt he can make the team as a 3rd inactive QB
        Duarte – more of a Julius Thomas type of TE, a mismatch receiver

  32. Tim Knight says:

    Stanger, no I would not trade Carroo back for a 3rd and 4th this year. That makes no sense to me. It’s too early to evaluate him. 3rd rd picks are never considered immediate starters, they are 50/50 prospects with starter upside. The 4th rd even less.

    I was lukewarm about that trade but being that it happened my instincts move into let’s see mode, not the OMG we traded a 3rd and a 4th and a 6th rd too!!!? LOL

    • Tim Knight says:

      We tend to forget we traded back into the 3rd so MIN gave up their’s in 2016 for a 2017 3rd. That’s a swap. So if you want to harp on the 2017 4th and 2016 6th that’s your right. It doesn’t mean that much to me. Those picks are not premium.

      It will all come down to what Carroo becomes. Let’s hope it was a great deal. 🙂

    • stangerx says:

      Cool enough Tim. Hoping Carroo proves you absolutely right in that.

      • Tim Knight says:

        Stanger, I have no idea what Carroo will become. The team made the deal not me. LOL

        I didn’t know much about him prior to the draft. Part of my fun with the draft is watching what we do and then reading up on some prospects that weren’t on my radar. Landry was one of those. Only time will tell. Hickey nailed it with Landry.

    • It all depends on how you look at it. The team had a 2nd rd grade on Carroo as a wr, if I’m not mistaken, and there were others who also considered him a 2nd rd talent. So, if that’s the case, we got a 2nd rd talent in the 3rd rd and, like you said, the picks we gave up don’t have the value and that includes future picks.

      Future picks, even in the same rd, don’t have the same value as those in the current year.

  33. Mike E. says:

    Back to Carroo, because this what I often think of. OK, so we had a 2nd RD value on Carroo, and he was there in 3rd. Besides the value that you put on the player as a WR, don’t you think you should have a need and a plan for that player beyond the fact that he’s a good value to take in the 3rd RD, especially when you have to trade away multiple picks to get that player? Again, it’s not like Carroo fell in their lap, they went fishing and used an awful lot of bait to get him, so what’s the long term plan? We only have him for a 4 YR contract, and then he’s an UFA, so there ain’t no waiting period here, either you use him, or lose him. If they don’t even try to get production out of him, it was a huge waste of picks. There’s really no other way to look at it. The fact that he was a supposed to be a 2nd RD pick means absolutely nothing if you don’t get production from him. We already lost a year of his 4 YR contract, they better get this kid up to speed fast!

    • Tim Knight says:

      He won’t be a FA until 2020. For me it’s about when we need him to step up. Until we know where we are with Stills, he’s still 4th on the depth chart.

      • Mike E. says:

        For me, it’s having a clear plan for a player that you just went crazy to get. Why get a player you have no plan for? It’s like trading your 1st RD pick in MLB for a PH. Makes no sense. You’re saying trade future assets away just in case you need this player at some point, when you clearly know you don’t need him year 1?

    • steveccnv says:

      You’re over reacting Mike. We really didn’t give up that much to get him. Miami traded the team’s sixth round pick (186) this year, and the franchise’s third- and fourth-round pick in 2017. A 6th isn’t really worth much, a 3rd and 4th in the next draft is comparable to a 4th and 5th, plus we made the playoffs pushing it back further.

      Carroo was picked as security in case Stills leaves this year, that’s the way teams draft after the first couple of rounds (for future years, not the current one). If the team hadn’t done this and picked Stills’ replacement with our 3rd this year, then everyone would be saying we had no plan.

      Go back and look at our last few drafts and you’ll see guys like Jamil Douglas picked in those spots. If he doesn’t work out for us, then of course the pick was bad, but the trade was pretty close to the value chart, so you can’t blame a guy for trying to improve the team.

      Just let it play out.

  34. Mike E. says:

    Tim, Bri

    Did you guys hear that Jay Bruce has been working out at 1B in case Lucas Duda isn’t healthy? I actually like that plan. If Duda can’t go, you still have a power bat in the lineup at 1B. If you have to keep Bruce, may as well use him wherever you can.

  35. Mike E. says:

    Steve

    We also traded a 3rd RD pick for Stills, so I think we should have had a plan for him as well. 3rd RD picks don’t grow on trees. If we wanted to keep Stills, there was no need for the Carroo trade IMO

    • Brian in NY says:

      I was thinking that earlier as well. That’s 2 years for a 3rd if he leaves. Not a great return.

    • Tim Knight says:

      Not really. We traded Ellerbe’s (Ireland) contract to N’orleans for a 3rd and got Stills as an add on.

      • steveccnv says:

        wide receiver Kenny Stills being shipped Friday to the Miami Dolphins for linebacker Dannell Ellerbe and a third-round pick, per Rapoport.

    • steveccnv says:

      What makes you think there’s no plan? The team doesn’t have a crystal ball. Plan A was for Stills to come in and do what he did in N.O. Plan B was drafting Carroo, in case Stills didn’t work out or was too expensive to keep.

      You don’t think the Cheats do the same thing?

  36. Tim Knight says:

    Brian. he’s #74 right? He looked huge. Not saying that’s a bad thing. The book on him is he’s a legit left-handed 1B-man and eventual power hitter. He’ll be 22 in June.

    • Brian in NY says:

      Yes. I think they are bringing him along the right way. The weight loss still puts him at 235, so still plenty of size.

  37. Brian in NY says:

    Tim,
    Thinking about NE’s draft picks, they’ll probably end up with 9 after the trade Garappolo. I hope no one is stupid enough to give up a first for him.

  38. pheloniusphish says:

    May Mother of Jeysus with all the Caroo angst! As if 6th round piscks are worth something. You know who I see when I lookat Caroo? Steve Smith. At some point he will get on the field and makemyou forget about all this “he was not worth it” whining.

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